IR Revised V1.3.800 (2022 January 11th)

[Guest Boo Is Overrated]

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

IR/R does not touch them (nor the third list of items imported that BG2EE uses - the item you get from Malaaq). While that is a perfectly fine idea, you'd need someone that has a good grasp over their abilities and well-balanced/fitting locations to place them. That person is unfortunately not me, not being familiar with either EE items/locations/creatures.

Thanks, I might take a crack at them myself then and make them available as an option. I find the EE's most painful violations are lazy items that allow multiple-per-day castings of spells. Ring of Duplication - 3x mirror image, Collar Bell - 3x remove sleep/unconscious 30' radius, Eyes of the Beholder - 3x Dominate, 3x Fear, 3x Hold, etc.

Without addressing any lore and just considering gameplay balance, my preferred fix is often to treat the magic effect as a contingency instead of a guaranteed casting. So Ring of Duplication doesn't cast mirror image, but it has a 15% chance to generate 4 mirror images for 1 turn upon hit, etc. The most important effect of doing this is you can't carry around the items in your bag-of-holding as a bonus spellbook. ("Hey, I wanna cast mirror image, time to put on the Ring of Duplication for 1 second and then swap it back out"). And it keeps the items in the interesting and useful category, but never in the "I'm never going to take this off" category.

[Bartimaeus]

10 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Not just you being OCD - some of my more complicated mods store info in character files that EEKeeper actually screws up.  I can't figure out what 'Keeper actually does, or  why, or whether/how I can code around it.  It annoys the life out of me. 

Oh, interesting! I've run into weirdities over the years using it that I eventually decided to just...stop using it, and instead use Near Infinity's save game editing when I can (even though it's a bit more difficult and less convenient to use). Good to know I'm not the only one.

@Guest: I really dislike the design of most EE items, and in addition to the work it'd take, that's a part of my hesitance to integrate those items into IRR. Some are underdesigned a la vanilla BG2 items, some are stupidly overdesigned and just don't fit alongside other BG items as a result, some overpowered or alternatively of little use. There's a reason I think of many of the EE's content additions as being no better than mod-added content - so much of it sticks out like a sore thumb for one reason or another, and I'm just not going to have a high opinion of it as a result. Unlike mod-added content that I can elect to use or not to use, Beamdog very forcefully included all such additions in the game. And I certainly don't want to spend many hours thinking of how to fix some of the worst offenders, especially when I'm not even going to use them...

Chance to fire items: As a practical matter, I tend to prefer more hands-off items like what you're mentioning, especially in the case of weak effects or spells. Too many activated items usually leads to me...not ever activating some of them because there are too many to manage in addition to characters' other abilities/spells and I forget. Which is why when people were suggesting it, I did not want to make the Shield of Falling Stars' Shield Others effect simply a "cast Shield spell" activated ability - I'd prefer to make it a little overpowered if that's what it takes to make it useful rather than add yet another minor activated ability. So changing some such activated abilities to passive chance to activate effects is not a bad idea in my books, though it'd of course depend on the specific cases.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

7 hours ago, Guest Boo Is Overrated said:

I find the EE's most painful violations are lazy items that allow multiple-per-day castings of spells. Ring of Duplication - 3x mirror image, Collar Bell - 3x remove sleep/unconscious 30' radius,

To be fair, letting you cast various spells per day that a don't require the use of spell slots is a decent concept, fitting in roughly the same box as a Ring of Wizardry - just with a narrower scope.  If my caster is going to be casting spells every round, and Mirror Image is already a go-to defense that I will always memorize, and that ring lets me memorize more Webs or Acid Arrows instead, then the ring nicely enhances my wizard without changing the way I was going to play anyway.

And very rare cases, I like items that let members of one class use powers that usually belong to other classes.  Like the short sword that casts Mirror Image, allowing a thief or ranger have the kind of defense that is usually reserved for wizards.  That's fun. 

But that sort of thing, in both cases, should be applied with a light touch.  I agree that BG2EE seems lean on this type of item too heavily - just as SoD leans way too heavily on items that have some minor passive effect for most wearers, but an extra passive effect for certain kits.  It's a nice idea... but not every item has to work that way!  Also the "remove status effect" items drive me crazy.  A bell to remove sleep, a harp to remove charm, another harp to remove confusion, another harp to remove paralysis... just no.  Scrap all that stuff and just give me a "Break Enchantment Wand."

7 hours ago, Guest Boo Is Overrated said:

Eyes of the Beholder - 3x Dominate, 3x Fear, 3x Hold, etc.

Whaaaat, I just found this in my current game and it is bonkers - ridiculous concept, ugly icon, etc.  (I play with CDTweaks' "Remove Helmet Animations..." I shudder to think what this helmet would look like in an unmodded game.)  I was sure that was some kind of mod-added junk.  Can't believe it came from the devs.  Gonna mod that thing right out of my game...

[NdranC]

It's been a while but I have a couple more updates.

I like what was done to the Ring of Kangaxx. It's a lot more thematically fitting BUT it's also a little disappointing to find "x3 per day Larloch's Minor Drain" on it. It's a weak level 1 spell on the ring of THE ultimate Demi Lich. My suggestion would be maybe "x1 per day Larloch's Energy Drain". Not really an amazing spell anyway and to me it seems a little more fitting that you would find both a level 7 and 9 necromancer spell on the ring.

How does IR(R) handle items when SR(R) is not installed? I've been toying around with the idea of having my next modded install to use SCS+IWD spells (+ Mirror Image Fix from SR) but still keep the IR(R) changes. Mostly I just wan to experience it for comparison and I would also like to point out the new spell animations I talked to you about so that you might be able to steal them for SR(R).

I might have some free time soon and I might use it to get you the data you needed to update SoD items to work with IR(R). Can you remind me exactly what you needed? The item name file name and the description attached to said item? I was thinking of making a little weidu script that could read all items that start with ~^BD.+\.itm$~ and output their descriptions on a text file. Not sure if weidu is capable of that but I'll look into the documentation to try.

Is there any other standard EE item you need for full EE compatibility? I didn't do any EE companion quests in my current playthrough so I'm not sure if you have those covered.

EDIT: Should've read the last post before asking about the EE items. Yeah I can understand your issues with it, I played SoD for the first time this playthrough and even though I fully expected to like it, thinking people were exaggerating, I ended up really hating it. Hard to ask you to account for items you don't want to play with.

EDIT2: I forgot to add. I noticed Cromwell doesn't have item names updated to match the changes. This was particularly noticeable crafting Crom Fayer. Might be too annoying to update the dialog strings but I figured I should bring it up.

Edited September 2, 2020 by NdranC

[pochesun]

21 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

IR/R does not touch them (nor the third list of items imported that BG2EE uses - the item you get from Malaaq). While that is a perfectly fine idea, you'd need someone that has a good grasp over their abilities and well-balanced/fitting locations to place them. That person is unfortunately not me, not being familiar with either EE items/locations/creatures.

Np, its just a hint If someday someone decides to do it - would be great, if not - its ok too, will have to spend 30 more mins to run around SoD locations to get those items   Btw, did not know BG 2 uses third list of imported items but with my current run Malaaq gave me Sword of Chaos and i dont remember i carried it when i finished BG 1. 

19 hours ago, Mike1072 said:

SoD to BG2EE Item Upgrade may be exactly what you're looking for.

Thx  Might use it.

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, NdranC said:

It's been a while but I have a couple more updates.

I like what was done to the Ring of Kangaxx. It's a lot more thematically fitting BUT it's also a little disappointing to find "x3 per day Larloch's Minor Drain" on it. It's a weak level 1 spell on the ring of THE ultimate Demi Lich. My suggestion would be maybe "x1 per day Larloch's Energy Drain". Not really an amazing spell anyway and to me it seems a little more fitting that you would find both a level 7 and 9 necromancer spell on the ring.

How does IR(R) handle items when SR(R) is not installed? I've been toying around with the idea of having my next modded install to use SCS+IWD spells (+ Mirror Image Fix from SR) but still keep the IR(R) changes. Mostly I just wan to experience it for comparison and I would also like to point out the new spell animations I talked to you about so that you might be able to steal them for SR(R).

I might have some free time soon and I might use it to get you the data you needed to update SoD items to work with IR(R). Can you remind me exactly what you needed? The item name file name and the description attached to said item? I was thinking of making a little weidu script that could read all items that start with ~^BD.+\.itm$~ and output their descriptions on a text file. Not sure if weidu is capable of that but I'll look into the documentation to try.

Is there any other standard EE item you need for full EE compatibility? I didn't do any EE companion quests in my current playthrough so I'm not sure if you have those covered.

EDIT: Should've read the last post before asking about the EE items. Yeah I can understand your issues with it, I played SoD for the first time this playthrough and even though I fully expected to like it, thinking people were exaggerating, I ended up really hating it. Hard to ask you to account for items you don't want to play with.

EDIT2: I forgot to add. I noticed Cromwell doesn't have item names updated to match the changes. This was particularly noticeable crafting Crom Fayer. Might be too annoying to update the dialog strings but I figured I should bring it up.

Crom Faeyr: Odd, as Cromwell's strings are actually updated.

IR/R: What will effectively happen is that divine spells will usually be cast as per vanilla spells, while arcane spells will be cast as per SR spells. In most cases, you probably won't notice the difference in a functional sense, but there may be a few odd discrepancies (like, I don't think Deafness does any damage in vanilla, so items that cast Sound Burst will continue to do damage...similarly, that one harp will still continue to cast Break Enchantment and not Remove Curse, etc.).

Ring of Kangaxx: Neat idea, but I'd strip it of Finger of Death as well if I went that route, since SRR's Energy Drain has an instant death effect identical to Finger of Death. I rather like this idea and may implement it - as I just wrote recently, I don't care for minor activated abilities because it's often difficult to find time to use them, and the thought of seriously spending multiple rounds to cast Larloch's Minor Drains post-defeating Kangaxx sounds asinine to me.

What EE items I have: I don't know. If it's not in the following list, then I do not have it included:

I'd have to be familiar with all the items the EEs add in order to know what I don't have, and if I was familiar with them all, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion, .

@pochesun Was pretty sure I read that BG2EE uses a third list, and that the Cambion instead has the Sword of Chaos +2 equipped and Malaaq gives some other kind of imported weapon, but maybe I'm crazy.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Boo Is Overrated]

10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Chance to fire items: As a practical matter, I tend to prefer more hands-off items like what you're mentioning, especially in the case of weak effects or spells. Too many activated items usually leads to me...not ever activating some of them because there are too many to manage in addition to characters' other abilities/spells and I forget. Which is why when people were suggesting it, I did not want to make the Shield of Falling Stars' Shield Others effect simply a "cast Shield spell" activated ability - I'd prefer to make it a little overpowered if that's what it takes to make it useful rather than add yet another minor activated ability. So changing some such activated abilities to passive chance to activate effects is not a bad idea in my books, though it'd of course depend on the specific cases.

Yep, that's exactly why I like contingency items too. The vast majority of "Weapons/Helms/Shields that let me cast spwiXXX 2 times per day" might as well be "Hunk of Bread that lets me cast spwiXXX 2 times per day", because I'm almost never using it as a weapon/helm/shield.  I'm just carrying it around in the bag of holding and let it annoy me as I think "oh Christ, did I use all my free spells today?". A well-balanced contingency makes me think, "Ok, I have a +3 hammer but let's take a chance with this +2 hammer with a useful trigger effect".

Examples of what I've done for the Ch2/3 EE items (just focusing on the 'cast spwiXXX n times per day' abilities):

Ring of Duplication: mirror image 3x per day.

My fix: upon hit, 10% chance 4 mirror images for 1 turn, 10% chance Reflected Image for 1 turn

Shield of Fyrus Khal: Greater Spell Deflection (5 turns as per SR) 1x per day.

My fix: Every 5 turns, 10% chance spontaneous Greater Spell Deflection. So over a full day, you'll average 2.4 "free" Greater Spell Deflections if you're using the shield continuously. I find this to be a pretty big nerf: 1 GrSpDef at the EXACT time I want, on the exact character I want, is almost always more valuable than 2.4 GrSpDef at random times on a character who may not make good use of it.

It's also a pretty big nerf because, with the original, I'd pass the shield to whichever character could best use the GrSpDef at the right moment. Can't do that now -- only the actual guy who uses the shield continuously will be the lucky recipient. The randomness also leads to creativity in the same way all of SR and IR leads to creativity. "Huh, well, I wasn't planning to use GrSpDef on the shadowdancer, but now that he's got it for 5 turns, let's run over to where I know those mages are waiting."

Etc.

Collar Bell: 3x per day, 30' automatic AoE sleep cure. 50% everyone (friend & foe) deaf for 1 turn if fail Save vs Spell.

I really like SR's implementation of Greater Command, but the Collar Bell renders it (and all sleep attacks) trivial!

My fix: One option is to just reduce it to 1x per day. But in addition to triggers, I also like to balance items with a drawback or a risk of a drawback. So if I leave it at 3x, I'm thinking about cranking up the Deafness to 100%, allies only, unless I Save vs Spell -6 or an even bigger penalty. Allies only for Deafness so the thief can't solo sneak into the midst of enemy mages and deafen them all. And a very real chance for deafness so if I have 1 unconscious character, I have a genuine decision ("maybe it's better to leave the cleric unconscious vs. the very real risk of making both my mages deaf").

Anyway... thanks again for all the work you and others do on IR and SR. Completely reignited my interest in the game.

 

[NdranC]

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

IR/R: What will effectively happen is that divine spells will usually be cast as per vanilla spells, while arcane spells will be cast as per SR spells. In most cases, you probably won't notice the difference in a functional sense, but there may be a few odd discrepancies (like, I don't think Deafness does any damage in vanilla, so items that cast Sound Burst will continue to do damage...similarly, that one harp will still continue to cast Break Enchantment and not Remove Curse, etc.).

Hmm will the item descriptions update for divine items? I can't remember of the top of my head what items would be the worst offenders.

Out of both IR(R) and SR(R) I'm a lot more in love with IR(R) conceptually and I would find it really hard to go back to vanilla items. Might be my only option for my test though.

Looking at the code of IR(R) I have a couple questions on how it functions. Seems to me that the main component will just replace almost every item in the game with a custom version that is stored in the "itm" folder. Once that is done the other components will patch all items (including vanilla, IR and other mod items) in an attempt to customize them based on the .ini file and the other files with custom values like armor/weapons.

Assuming all of that is true. Is the identify_item.tpa not good enough for armors and shields? I've noticed there is some code attempting to classify armor but is there no reliable data point in game that tells you what armor or shield is supposed to be without a user submitted list?

Speaking of identify_item.tpa, specifically for weapons. Is using the proficiency offset with some help of strength requirement not enough for all weapons? I've noticed there is a lot of animation checking, maybe something else, I can't look at the moment.

I ask because I'm currently making my own mod to change some of the weapon proficiencies and part of that is adding quarterstaves to monks and short/long bows to druids. The way I'm currently doing it is checking all items that have the right proficiency and are also usable by thieves (in the case of quarterstaves) and fighters (in the case of druids). Looking at the IR(R) identify_item.tpa makes me feel this game is filled with contradictions at every step.

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Crom Faeyr: Odd, as Cromwell's strings are actually updated.

Weird. The only component I have installed that I can think off will mess with that is the cdtweaks cromwell also knows cespenar recipes. Maybe that's the issue.

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

What EE items I have: I don't know. If it's not in the following list, then I do not have it included:

I don't know if this would be useful, but do you think it would be easy to implement a debugging .ini setting that when IR is installed it will print a tag in the item name/description to clearly tell if this is a custom item or not? I could do a cheats on playthrough  of SoD and see if I can spot any that fall through the cracks.

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Ring of Kangaxx: Neat idea, but I'd strip it of Finger of Death as well if I went that route, since SRR's Energy Drain has an instant death effect identical to Finger of Death. I rather like this idea and may implement it - as I just wrote recently, I don't care for minor activated abilities because it's often difficult to find time to use them, and the thought of seriously spending multiple rounds to cast Larloch's Minor Drains post-defeating Kangaxx sounds asinine to me.

Sounds great to me. Sidenote. I hate the death spells. They are so un-usable. For kicks I tried to kill both Firkraag and that Acid Dragon in the elven city. I'm almost certain dragons are vulnerable to death effects since I saw saves but after casting malison AND doom plus 4 fingers of death both dragons saved every time. To make matters worse is not like this is even a valid strategy since I could have killed them much quicker than that I was just toying around with them.

[Mike1072]

4 hours ago, NdranC said:

Looking at the code of IR(R) I have a couple questions on how it functions. Seems to me that the main component will just replace almost every item in the game with a custom version that is stored in the "itm" folder. Once that is done the other components will patch all items (including vanilla, IR and other mod items) in an attempt to customize them based on the .ini file and the other files with custom values like armor/weapons.

Assuming all of that is true. Is the identify_item.tpa not good enough for armors and shields? I've noticed there is some code attempting to classify armor but is there no reliable data point in game that tells you what armor or shield is supposed to be without a user submitted list?

Speaking of identify_item.tpa, specifically for weapons. Is using the proficiency offset with some help of strength requirement not enough for all weapons? I've noticed there is a lot of animation checking, maybe something else, I can't look at the moment.

I ask because I'm currently making my own mod to change some of the weapon proficiencies and part of that is adding quarterstaves to monks and short/long bows to druids. The way I'm currently doing it is checking all items that have the right proficiency and are also usable by thieves (in the case of quarterstaves) and fighters (in the case of druids). Looking at the IR(R) identify_item.tpa makes me feel this game is filled with contradictions at every step.

You have the right idea.  Armors are all over the map and manual identification is required.  Weapon detection is a lot easier to automate.  The fields you have to check depend on the specific category of item you want to identify.  Some can be done with just item type or item type and proficiency.  As a general rule, I'd recommend against trusting usabilities to determine weapon type (there are class-specific items that can easily be misidentified).  But they can work if you're doing more of a global change, like IR does with restricting fighter/druids to the same armor options as regular druids (code here).

[NdranC]

21 minutes ago, Mike1072 said:

You have the right idea.  Armors are all over the map and manual identification is required.  Weapon detection is a lot easier to automate.  The fields you have to check depend on the specific category of item you want to identify.  Some can be done with just item type or item type and proficiency.  As a general rule, I'd recommend against trusting usabilities to determine weapon type (there are class-specific items that can easily be misidentified).  But they can work if you're doing more of a global change, like IR does with restricting fighter/druids to the same armor options as regular druids (code here).

Ok this makes me doubt what I'm doing then.

Spoiler

COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~^.+\.itm$~ ~override~

    PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) BEGIN
        READ_BYTE 0x31 prof_type
        READ_BYTE 0x1f legal2fighter
        READ_BYTE 0x20 legal2ranger
        READ_BYTE 0x20 legal2thief
        READ_BYTE 0x1e legal2cleric
        READ_BYTE 0x20 legal2mage

        // FLAG SHORT_SWORDS, CLUBS AND CROSSBOWS FOR MAGES, CLERIC_MAGES, FIGHTER_MAGE_CLERICS, FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF, FIGHTER_MAGES AND MAGE_THIEFS TO USE
        PATCH_IF ((prof_type = 91 OR prof_type = 115 OR prof_type = 103) AND ((legal2thief BAND BIT6) = 0)) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT2)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT3)
        END
        PATCH_IF ((prof_type = 91 OR prof_type = 115 OR prof_type = 103) AND ((legal2fighter BAND BIT3) = 0)) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT5)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT7)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT0)
        END

        // FLAG QUARTERSTAVES FOR MONKS TO USE
        PATCH_IF (prof_type = 102 AND ((legal2thief BAND BIT6) = 0)) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x21 (THIS BAND `BIT5)
        END

        // FLAG SHORTBOWS AND LONGBOWS FOR DRUIDS AND FIGHTER_DRUIDS TO USE
        PATCH_IF ((prof_type = 104 OR prof_type = 105) AND ((legal2fighter BAND BIT3) = 0)) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT4)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x21 (THIS BAND `BIT6)
        END

        // FLAG ALL FIGHTER ITEMS FOR USE WITH ALL FIGHTER MULTICLASSES (EXCEPT FIGHTER_DRUIDS)
        PATCH_IF ((legal2fighter BAND BIT3) = 0) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT5)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT6)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT7)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT1)
        END

        // FLAG ALL RANGER ITEMS FOR RANGER_CLERICS TO USE
        PATCH_IF ((legal2ranger BAND BIT5) = 0) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT2)
        END

        // FLAG ALL THIEF ITEMS FOR USE WITH ALL THIEF MULTICLASSES
        PATCH_IF ((legal2thief BAND BIT6) = 0) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT1)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT1)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT3)
        END

        // FLAG ALL CLERIC ITEMS FOR USE WITH ALL CLERIC MULTICLASSES
        PATCH_IF ((legal2cleric BAND BIT7) = 0) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT1)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT2)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT6)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT7)
        END

        // FLAG ALL MAGE ITEMS FOR USE WITH ALL MAGE MULTICLASSES
        PATCH_IF ((legal2mage BAND BIT2) = 0) BEGIN
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT5)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x1f (THIS BAND `BIT7)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT0)
            WRITE_BYTE 0x20 (THIS BAND `BIT3)
        END

    END

BUT_ONLY

 

This is my first attempt at implementing something like this.

I try to give mages the ability to use short_swords, clubs and crossbows (light) and I'm hoping a simple "if it can be used by thieves and it has the right proficiency then it can be used by the mage". The last couple are sweeping changes that I'm just adding as a final pass on my mod install to make sure if an item can be used by a single class then it should be used by it's multiclass as well. I had a couple instances on my last install where this was not the case and I'm hopping this can work as a catch all net for inconsistencies.

Would you say this kind of approach is likely to end in disaster?

Edited September 3, 2020 by NdranC

[Mike1072]

That's the same approach I would take and it should work fine for the most part.

You might have to do a manual check to make sure there are no weapons in those categories that are restricted to those specific classes.  (For a contrived example, imagine if you had some code that gave druids access to all the weapons that paladins can use.  They would gain access to regular 2-handed swords that everyone gets but they would also end up being able to use Carsomyr.)  Your first set of patches has the potential to do a similar thing if there are any thief-only or fighter-only short swords, clubs, or crossbows in the game.  I don't know if there are any in vanilla but there are a lot of mods out there.  The easiest way to handle the oddities is to track them down and specifically exclude them from the patch.

P.S. I think fighter/thieves and fighter/mage/thieves are already able to use all those weapon types.

[Bartimaeus]

On 9/2/2020 at 9:02 PM, NdranC said:

Hmm will the item descriptions update for divine items? I can't remember of the top of my head what items would be the worst offenders.

Out of both IR(R) and SR(R) I'm a lot more in love with IR(R) conceptually and I would find it really hard to go back to vanilla items. Might be my only option for my test though.

Looking at the code of IR(R) I have a couple questions on how it functions. Seems to me that the main component will just replace almost every item in the game with a custom version that is stored in the "itm" folder. Once that is done the other components will patch all items (including vanilla, IR and other mod items) in an attempt to customize them based on the .ini file and the other files with custom values like armor/weapons.

Assuming all of that is true. Is the identify_item.tpa not good enough for armors and shields? I've noticed there is some code attempting to classify armor but is there no reliable data point in game that tells you what armor or shield is supposed to be without a user submitted list?

Speaking of identify_item.tpa, specifically for weapons. Is using the proficiency offset with some help of strength requirement not enough for all weapons? I've noticed there is a lot of animation checking, maybe something else, I can't look at the moment.

I ask because I'm currently making my own mod to change some of the weapon proficiencies and part of that is adding quarterstaves to monks and short/long bows to druids. The way I'm currently doing it is checking all items that have the right proficiency and are also usable by thieves (in the case of quarterstaves) and fighters (in the case of druids). Looking at the IR(R) identify_item.tpa makes me feel this game is filled with contradictions at every step.

Weird. The only component I have installed that I can think off will mess with that is the cdtweaks cromwell also knows cespenar recipes. Maybe that's the issue.

I don't know if this would be useful, but do you think it would be easy to implement a debugging .ini setting that when IR is installed it will print a tag in the item name/description to clearly tell if this is a custom item or not? I could do a cheats on playthrough  of SoD and see if I can spot any that fall through the cracks.

Sounds great to me. Sidenote. I hate the death spells. They are so un-usable. For kicks I tried to kill both Firkraag and that Acid Dragon in the elven city. I'm almost certain dragons are vulnerable to death effects since I saw saves but after casting malison AND doom plus 4 fingers of death both dragons saved every time. To make matters worse is not like this is even a valid strategy since I could have killed them much quicker than that I was just toying around with them.

For items whose spell-like abilities are actually governed by what spells are currently in your game, their descriptions should match. Should.

I think Mike covered everything else besides your last two. The debugging bit: not really sure. Probably not something that I'd be suited to answer. I guess you'd want to have the weapon-type identifier identify if it's a valid weapon type (to make sure you aren't catching stuff like creature weapons, or at least not too many of them), then check it against the list of items installed by items.2da, and exclude it if it's already there. I'm not really sure how you'd do that, though.

Death spells: Yeah, death effects aren't usually much good for major creatures, for obvious reasons. Don't know if Firkraag is specifically immune to them, though, but I'm sure he has hella good resists.

[NdranC]

@Bartimaeus I think there might be a bug? in the second component of the revised backstabbing. I wouldn't think this is intentional but I'm noticing is causing all weapons in the game to become usable by thieves. Except for Composite Short/Long Bows. Unless I'm misunderstanding the component, I though it would add the ability to backstab to more weapons with careful penalties. Didn't think it was necessary to have single class thieves be able to use all of them since multiclass thieves already have access to more weapons and eventually you get use any item anyway. Just checking.

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, NdranC said:

@Bartimaeus I think there might be a bug? in the second component of the revised backstabbing. I wouldn't think this is intentional but I'm noticing is causing all weapons in the game to become usable by thieves. Except for Composite Short/Long Bows. Unless I'm misunderstanding the component, I though it would add the ability to backstab to more weapons with careful penalties. Didn't think it was necessary to have single class thieves be able to use all of them since multiclass thieves already have access to more weapons and eventually you get use any item anyway. Just checking.

Didn't the same thing used to happen with the 3rd subcomponent? Thought I fixed that, but then I overwrote my fix with Subtledoctor's official fix for it. I'll see about it, thanks.

[subtledoctor]

37 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Didn't the same thing used to happen with the 3rd subcomponent? Thought I fixed that, but then I overwrote my fix with Subtledoctor's official fix for it. I'll see about it, thanks.

To be clear: that component was making all items already usable by fighter/thieves, usable by thieves.  Or something like that.  My fix limited it to weapons only.

But my understanding is, the game considers something to be a valid backstabbing weapon if it is usable by thieves.  So the only way to allow backstabbing with, say, battle axes, is to make battle axes usable by thieves.  Which means there is no getting around the consequence of making more weapons usable by thieves, if you want to make more weapons usable for backstabs.  Meaning, this isn't a bug.

That's my understanding, anyway.  Anyone can please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.