IR Revised V1.3.800 (2022 January 11th)

[Guest Alkaid]

16 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

The only +5 weapon in SoA in either IR or IRR is the Staff of Power of the Magi. I don't know what that component is, but it certainly sounds very difficult to account for if it just takes all weapons with an enchantment level of +1-4 and changes them all to +3 - can't imagine using it, it'd be very weird to have everything inexplicably set to +3. Does this also apply to SR's Phantom Blade (+4) and Fire Seeds (+4)?

Dunno about magically created equipment, and note I'm just guessing that it's set up to work algorithmically to account for mod added weapons and the like. Most obvious thing to explain why it changed Carsomyr from (4) (your mod) to (3). I'm not expecting you to account for it, I just thought I'd mention it to you in case someone else shows up one day, and as an amusing situation. I've mentioned it to subtle already on the Scales page.

In case I wasn't clear, I believe it only changes the effective enchantment value for hit purposes, not the thac0/damage modifiers. In general I think it probably just makes the game a bit easier because you'll have access to weapons that hit at +3 a lot earlier (against Raksasha for instance, much nicer). Might have chosen not to use it if I had a chance to reset stuff. I was mostly interested in the renaming of +1/+2/3 equipment to Masterwork/Enchanted. 

If my theory's correct then without manual editing I would have been stuck with literally one weapon in the entire game capable of damagin Kangaxx, lol.
 

[Guest Alkaid]

Oh, but on that note, why does IRR make them +4s in the first place? I believe that's separate from any of the mechanical stats of the weapon? In which case you could just put them back as +5s, I don't know if there's anything that's even immune to +4 in SoA.

[Bartimaeus]

10 minutes ago, Guest Alkaid said:

Oh, but on that note, why does IRR make them +4s in the first place? I believe that's separate from any of the mechanical stats of the weapon? In which case you could just put them back as +5s, I don't know if there's anything that's even immune to +4 in SoA.

I didn't, IR did - it's been +4 for in IR for ages, and +4 weapons are plenty powerful, and then having it go up to +5 in ToB made sense to me. I think it's a general philosophy in IR to not have any weapons be better than +5, given that IR changed all such weapons to +5 instead, but I can't say for sure what the idea there was. I think the one that a couple of people have asked for before is actually Crom Faeyr...but I think it kind of balances out with some others, like The Silver Sword and The Equalizer, going up to +4 instead. Additionally, Crom Faeyr is already outrageously powerful and I unnerfed it to compared to normal IR (which gives it -1/2 ApR), so I'm a little loathe to make it even stronger.

[Lianos]

If I remember correctly the rationale was nothing the player can acquire should penetrate Absolute Immunity (Level 9). Weapons with +6 enh would make this Level 9 spell much weaker than Protection From Magical Weapons.

[Bartimaeus]

12 minutes ago, Lianos said:

If I remember correctly the rationale was nothing the player can acquire should penetrate Absolute Immunity (Level 9). Weapons with +6 enh would make this Level 9 spell much weaker than Protection From Magical Weapons.

Protection from Magical Weapons is all magical weapons regardless of enchantment level in vanilla BG2, while Absolute Immunity is indeed only up to +5. Weird. In normal SR, both Protection from Magical Weapons and Absolute Immunity go up to +6 but no further; in SRR, it's up to +9 but not +10. So you may be right that IR was designed so that even if you were not using SR, no weapons would pierce Absolute Immunity.

[Guest Alkaid]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I didn't, IR did - it's been +4 for in IR for ages, and +4 weapons are plenty powerful, and then having it go up to +5 in ToB made sense to me. I think it's a general philosophy in IR to not have any weapons be better than +5, given that IR changed all such weapons to +5 instead, but I can't say for sure what the idea there was. I think the one that a couple of people have asked for before is actually Crom Faeyr...but I think it kind of balances out with some others, like The Silver Sword and The Equalizer, going up to +4 instead. Additionally, Crom Faeyr is already outrageously powerful and I unnerfed it to compared to normal IR (which gives it -1/2 ApR), so I'm a little loathe to make it even stronger.

I'm not talking about the thac0 and damage bonuses, I'm talking about the "Enchantment" value on the item stat which (as far as I'm aware, am I wrong here?) has absolutely no bearing on anything except what the weapon can hit.

In regards to the Crom Faeyr: It's quite strong, but it also requires you sacrificing two good items to even create in the first place, unlikely every other (as far as I remember) item in the game which is 'free' (in the sense that you're not giving up a belt of +3 str and gloves of +2 str to create them.)

This has just led to a quirky interaction with one of the Scales components that I think seems to have brought them all down to "can only hit enemies that +3 weapons can hit" status, lol. put them back up to 4 manually and was able to kill Kangaxx. 

Do note, I don't disagree on bringing them down to +4 thac0/damage. I was just curious why the Enchantment value was brought down to 4 as well. 

[Bartimaeus]

20 minutes ago, Guest Alkaid said:

In regards to the Crom Faeyr: It's quite strong, but it also requires you sacrificing two good items to even create in the first place, unlikely every other (as far as I remember) item in the game which is 'free' (in the sense that you're not giving up a belt of +3 str and gloves of +2 str to create them.)

That's actually true...plus, hammers aren't exactly the strongest of weapon categories to begin with. Hmm. Well, I'm glad I unnerfed it somewhat then, at least. Maybe a consideration for more in the future...

21 minutes ago, Guest Alkaid said:

I'm not talking about the thac0 and damage bonuses, I'm talking about the "Enchantment" value on the item stat which (as far as I'm aware, am I wrong here?) has absolutely no bearing on anything except what the weapon can hit.

Ah...still kind of weird to me. Actually kind of even weirder, because now the bonuses don't match with the enchantment value. What's the intended idea of this system?

[Guest Alkaid]

7 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

That's actually true...plus, hammers aren't exactly the strongest of weapon categories to begin with. Hmm. Well, I'm glad I unnerfed it somewhat then, at least. Maybe a consideration for more in the future...

Consider giving it some sort of proc in the melee form. The ranged stun thing applying to melee hits would probably be overpowered, but something interesting.

Quote

Ah...still kind of weird to me. Actually kind of even weirder, because now the bonuses don't match with the enchantment value. What's the intended idea of this system?

Standardizing enchantment values so you know what you've got, I guess. In the original game, some of the enchantment was disconnected from the weapon stats and was kinda weird. As I said, I'd probably uninstall this one if I could but it's not a bad idea. 

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

The only +5 weapon in SoA in either IR or IRR is the Staff of Power of the Magi.

Wait, what??

What about Carsomyr (!), Psion's Blade, the Mace of Disruption... what else am I missing...?

3 hours ago, Guest Alkaid said:

I'm not sure there are any weapons in SoA capable of hitting demiliches

To be fair, if the DM in this game was sane, there's no way you should ever be able to strike down a demilich without first having quested for some righteous artifacts... but, more relevant, are you saying that demiliches can be hit by +4 weapons? What a weird number to land on. Glancing at the internet for 5 minutes, I can't find any canonical source for that rule. I'm guessing Bioware made it up out of whole cloth, to ensure you have to use Crom Faeyr, Carsomyr, the Mace of Disruption, or the Staff of the Magi in order to hurt Kangaxx. Seems pretty artificial, and ultimately, stupid. Speaking of which:

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I'm a little loathe to make it even stronger

I don't think changing the enchantment of an item from +4 to +5 makes it stronger. It only affects how it interacts with this stupid "can't scratch me" system Bioware invented, which has no appreciable effect apart from forcing you to change weapons for no discernable reason. Why can the Flame Tongue and the Sword of Backstabbing damage an iron golem (or other random enemy that requires +3), but Peridan and Rashad's Talon and Kundane and Belm cannot? I mean, I can see why one or another might hit more easily or do more damage, but these are all powerful, enchanted swords that are so powerful and well-known that they have names. What is achieved by saying this or that one cannot even scratch certain monsters?

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Does this also apply to SR's Phantom Blade (+4) and Fire Seeds (+4)?

In my current game Melf's Meteors, Phantom Blade, and IWD's Moonblade all have +3 enchantment. Fire Seeds have +5. After installing my mod, there should basically be nothing in the game that has +4 enchantment.  Same question: what is achieved by setting those spell items to +4?  What is the intent behind that design decision? Can you give me a list of monsters that require +4 to hit, and of monsters that require +5 to hit?

I'm sorry, it's stupid. Players can see the "plus" of their weapon (because item names are stupid and fourth-wall-breaking) but they cannot see what "plus" is required to hit this or that monster unless they are looking at a wiki. This is not fun. The goal of my mod is to simplify this dumb system to the point where players just don't have to think about it. Is your weapon so well known and enchanted that it has a name and lore to go with it? Then it can hit most enemies in the game. (Considered +3 for "can it scratch the monster" purposes.)  Is the weapon a proper legend in its own right? Then it can hit anything in the game.  (Considered +5.)  Each weapon has it's own characteristics - Ardulia's Fall still only has +1 to hit and damage - but the silly "can it scratch the monster" stuff is removed from that. It's especially egregious that weapons with strong enchantments and well-known lore can't hit some monsters that boring, generic "magic mace of no consequence" can smash through. The mod reverses that, making sure that all named items have a higher enchantment value (again, solely for can-it-scratch purposes) than any generic "magic" weapon.

Basically players don't have to worry about this anymore. Find a named enchanted weapon? Great, that will largely do whatever you need it to do, for most of the game, unless you are facing a god-tier enemy like a demilich. In that case you need a legendary artifact-level weapon... and, thankfully, the game is overflowing with them.

What I didn't account for, is that a mod would reduce properly legendary items like Crom Faeyr from +5 to +4. I don't see the sense in that, honestly.  Setting Crom Faeyr, or Carsomyr, on the same level as Usuno's Blade or the Cutthroat sword? That also seems (sorry Demi) stupid.

But, now that I know, it's something I should account for. I'll have the mod manually bump certain weapons up into the top tier for can-it-scratch purposes. Alkaid, you seem on top of things in this regard: can you suggest a list of weapons that deserve to be bumped up?  Crom Faeyr and Carsomyr to be sure... any others you can think of?

Edited October 15, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

30 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I don't think changing the enchantment of an item from +4 to +5 makes it stronger. It only affects how it interacts with this stupid "can't hit me" system Bioware invented, which has no appreciable effect apart from forcing you to change weapons for no discernable reason. Why can the Flame Toungue and the Sword of Backstabbing damage an iron golem (or other random enemy that requires +3), but Peridan and Rashad's Talon and Kundane and Belm cannot? I mean, I can see why one or another might hit more easily or do more damage, but these are all powerful, enchanted swords that are so powerful and well-known that they have names. what is achieved by saying this or that one cannot even touch certain monsters?

Following IR's lead, I pretty strictly tie bonuses to the enchantment level with the exceptions of, once again following IR's lead, Bane weapons (which suffer generic -2 THAC0/-2 damage in exchange for specific +3 THAC0/+5 damage) and a few others that have special "size" modifiers (e.g. Oversized gives -1 THAC0, +2 damage for one-handed weapons, double those numbers for two-handed weapons), so to raise the enchantment level would be to also raise the damage and THAC0. Plus, Weapons Changes gets all confused if the bonuses don't match unless you create specific exceptions. I don't have any particular strong feelings about the whole "x enchantment can hit" system...but it's also never been that much of a problem for me in the actual game, either. I guess if you want lower +x weapons to be effective against all enemies, why not just set everything magical to +5 and make it a "non-magical weapons vs. magical weapons" system?

30 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

What about Carsomyr (!), Psion's Blade, the Mace of Disruption... what else am I missing...?

Mace of Disruption is +4 even when upgraded, Psion's Blade* is only +3, Carsomyr is only +4. Staff of the Magi, as far as I'm aware, is the only +5 weapon in SoA in IR, even accounting for Watcher's Keep weapons (which I wasn't even thinking of initially when I said that, but I still think it's true).

*IIRC, IR moves this to the Underdark, which is probably the only reasonable explanation for such a serious nerf. Even still, +3 is...severe.

30 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

In my current game Melf's Meteors, Phantom Blade, and IWD's Moonblade all have +3 enchantment. Fire Seeds have +5. After installing my mod, there should basically be nothing in the game that has +4 enchantment.  Same question: what is achieved by setting those spell items to +4?  What is the intent behind that design decision? Can you give me a list of monsters that require +4 to hit, and of monsters that require +5 to hit?

I cannot, as this has never been an issue for me so I'm not really aware of which ones that would even be. There are enough +4 weapons in IR that it's not an issue - if they're not set to +3 by a separate mod on the basis of them being +4 instead. As for SR's spell weapons, I'm not a hundred percent sure - presumably with the intent of allowing something like Phantom Blade to be used against those immune monsters, while not letting Melf's Minute Meteors to do so. That seems like the only logical assumption.

30 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

That also seems (sorry Demi) stupid.

How unfair, given that he can't defend himself!

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Alkaid]

Actually, I took a look at Cutthroat and apparently mine had an Enchant value of 5. xD
(+3 to thac0/damage though.)

[Bartimaeus]

50 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

But, now that I know, it's something I should account for. I'll have the mod manually bump certain weapons up into the top tier for can-it-scratch purposes. Alkaid, you seem on top of things in this regard: can you suggest a list of weapons that deserve to be bumped up?  Crom Faeyr and Carsomyr to be sure... any others you can think of?

Crom Faeyr, Carsomyr, improved Mace of Disruption, Klogarath?, Ice Star?, Iron Bow of Gesen, Lifestealer?, Blackmist, Rod of Smiting?, Staff of the Woodlands?, Daystar?, The Equalizer? At least some of those, I guess. And maybe all of the upgradeable ToB weapons that go to +5? I don't know, kind of hard to make some of these decisions on a whim.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I guess if you want lower +x weapons to be effective against all enemies, why not just set everything magical to +5 and make it a "non-magical weapons vs. magical weapons" system?

Don't get me wrong, I considered that. I even have a version of the mod that removes all generic enchanted weapons and downgrades them to unenchanted masterwork weapons. (That one hits you right in the pocketbook, no more selling reams of overvalued magical detritus to Ribald!) But there is also lore in the 2E system, and in FR stories, about artifacts, weapons of such powerful enchantment and quality that, unlike most, they are capable of striking down gods.  The mod's design is focused on lore, so it sets up a few categories:

• normal weapons, unenchanted
• masterwork weapons, of unusually high quality/materials (for BG1's sake this counts as "+1" behind the scenes, pretty much only so you don't face an unscratchable vampire wolf)
• generic enchanted weapons that are your bog-standard +2 (TOB generic +3 weapons get downgraded to +2)
• named weapons that are not legendary/artifact level gear... these can hit 99% of enemies in the game but not god-level enemies, and in the absence of SR are stopped by Improved Mantle
• legendary artifacts, which can hit anything and everyone not protected by PfMW or Absolute Immunity.

Admittedly that last category is kind of a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing... it includes anything that is upgraded by Cespenar, as well as Carsomyr, Crom Faeyr, the Staff of the Magi...

I feel like this is responsive to the lore and allows gameplay where you just don't have to think about it very much. Obviously you want named magical gear, and even when some of that gear has slightly lower bonuses than generic gear, there is always a secondary effect that raises its utility. You usually keep and use this stuff over generic gear, and in doing so you get the benefit of not having to worry about what you can hit... apart from when you foolishly  face off against absurdly powerful enemies like demiliches.

As I say, the assumption of the mod is that legendary/artifact-level gear will be +5. Now that I know IR reduces that, I can account for it and restore them to their rightful category in my mod.

[subtledoctor]

39 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Crom Faeyr, Carsomyr, improved Mace of Disruption, Klogarath?, Ice Star?, Iron Bow of Gesen, Lifestealer?, Blackmist, Rod of Smiting?, Staff of the Woodlands?, Daystar?, The Equalizer? At least some of those, I guess. And maybe all of the upgradeable ToB weapons that go to +5? I don't know, kind of hard to make some of these decisions on a whim.

Just ask yourself, "does weapon seem like a magic item? Or an artifact?" K'logorath seem like yes (it is mentioned as an artifact in the description, and says people have gone to war over it - earth-shaking, kingdom-felling characteristics suggest an artifact).  Ice Star, Life Stealer, Staff of the Woodlands, Blackmist, from reading their descriptions seem like probably not.  Rod of Smiting probably not - "can be very useful against some foes" in the description hardly sounds like an artifact.  Crom Faeyr and Carsomyr, yes.  Improved MoD yes, because the simplest rule is that anything upgraded = artifact-level.  The Gesen Bow doesn't matter because launcher enchantment is meaningless.

The Equalizer is sort of a tough call, since its description sounds pretty legendary ("designed to... shift the universe")... but the thing is +3 in the unmodded game; I hardly think my mod could be faulted for keeping that the same. But OTOH, you have to put it together, like Crom Faeyr... I'll consider it.

Daystar could go either way. It hardly seems like an artifact, but it is also designed to scratch demiliches, and there is no other pre-TOB longsword that can do that.

Edited October 15, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Just ask yourself, "does weapon seem like a magic item? Or an artifact?"

I guess I have trouble defining what an artifact even is to begin with here. To me, there are "minor" and "major" artifacts - stuff like The Flail of Ages, Ravager, or Crom Faeyr would be "major", while stuff like Shazzelim, Werebane, and Flame of the North would be "minor", and stuff like Lifestealer(?), Harbinger, and Heartseeker would be somewhere in between, but the lines can be pretty blurry. Unique items with unique lore and powers are pretty much artifacts of some kind, in my mind - I guess with my line of thinking, you're really just looking for what I would consider "major artifacts".

I guess my list for that would be:

1. K'logarath
2. Axe of the Unyielding
3. MAYBE the improved Mace of Disruption but probably not due to its original status as a mass produced weapon (...but it is improved, so I guess you could make an argument)
4. The Flail of Ages
5. Club of Detonation
6. Storm Star
7. MAYBE Ice Star (it would be the only qualifying Morning Star if so...I guess I also make this one a little stronger than the IR version to try and make it more of a proper "ultimate morning star", so I might be biased)
8. Iron Bow of Gesen
9. Darkfire Bow
10. Taralash
11. Dagger of the Star
12. The Wave
13. Ravager
14. Crom Faeyr
15. Runehammer
16. Big Metal Rod (lol)
17. Erinne Sling
18. Ixil's Nail/Spike
19. Staff of the Magi
20. Staff of the Ram
21. MAYBE Daystar
22. MAYBE the Equalizer
23. Short Sword of Mask
24. Angurvadal
25. Foebane
26. Purifier
27. Spectral Brand
28. Hindo's Doom
29. MAYBE but probably not Soul Reaver
30. Carsomyr
31. Silver Sword (also only +3 in the original game, if you can believe it)
32. Gram the Sword of Grief
33. Unholy Reaver
34. Firetooth

I think that'd be the list for me. I don't know anything about BG2EE items. In SoA, this list would give you Iron Bow of Gesen, The Wave, Crom Faeyr, Staff of the Magi, Carsomyr, and The Silver Sword for sure, with potentially Daystar, Soul Reaver, The Equalizer, and The Mace of Disruption to potentially include as well.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus