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Future tweak ideas - post 'em here


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Greetings! i ask in advance for forgiveness for any mistakes i might be making on this comment, or post, i just created an account on this website, and i dont even know how to do this, but basically i would like to drop an idea for the people working on tweaks antology.

Personally, I dont like the idea that you cant cast arcane spells while wearing armor, it does not make any sense to me, mages should be using robes because robes make them better mages, not because they are restricted to it. Then i see that this tweaks anthology has this component called "Allow Arcane Spellcasting in Armor" with is one component in regards to that preference issue, but i dont think that this is a good way to solve the problem of casting arcane spells while wearing armor.

You see, casting a spell, to have it miss, is wasting the spell, and if you are playing on high difficulty, with SCS installed, you cant just waste an important spell, say a imprisonment on a powerfull unit that is about to kill your party, just because you are wearing armor, basically this makes the component not even an option for me, because i dont think you can affort do completelly waste a spell, plus it is a frustrating experience to miss spells all the time, you never realise that dream of being a "knight spellcaster".

Instead, if you guys would be kind to change it from miscast chance based on armor, to increase casting time of spells, so that the spell is not wasted, but rather delayed, that would make it so that arcane casting and armor is a viable combination in my oppinion, preferably increase the time by flat time instead of percentages, because otherwise, with a percentage in time, say for example, 100% more cast time while wearing armor, wouldnt make much difference on spells like magic missile that have a cast time of one, but would make spells of big cast time nearly impossible to cast, instead i would really like if you could simply add a number on the total cast time of the spell, say 0 for no armor/robe, 2 for leather, 3 for mail and 4 for plate, basically, a negative Robe of Vecna. For example;

Arcane Missile: base cast time of 1, with plate 4 (from 0.6 seconds to 3 seconds)

Time Stop: base cast time of 9, with plate 13 (from 5.4 seconds to 7.8 seconds)

I would even like to apply this armor restriction to clerics as well in my games. And of course, if you guys really like this idea, change the game so that some enemy creatures benefit from this, turn a few fights against guys that are simply fighters in armor, to fighter-mages, to make it a little interesting.

Sorry if someone already gave this idea.

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3 hours ago, mongretops said:

Instead, if you guys would be kind to change it from miscast chance based on armor, to increase casting time of spells, so that the spell is not wasted, but rather delayed, that would make it so that arcane casting and armor is a viable combination in my oppinion,

But you see, there's already this option for that. It's not in the Tweaks Anthology though, it's in Item Revision... and there's one in Full Plate and... yes, the Tweaks could use more options for this as sub components. But that would require consistent items, which can be a hard requirement for a mod installed so late in the game, while the Item Rev can have them as it needs to be installed quite near the start and the primary component makes the items consistant up to a decree, and it can be required to be installed first(and thus it is).

3 hours ago, mongretops said:

Time Stop: base cast time of 9, with plate 13 (from 5.4 seconds to 7.8 seconds)

The casting time doesn't work that way, the maxes out in 9 or 10. Aka 6 seconds in 30 fps. And if memory serves, Magic missile casting time can't be slowed either, cause it's actually instant, not a timer of "1".

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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8 hours ago, mongretops said:

Instead, if you guys would be kind to change it from miscast chance based on armor, to increase casting time of spells, so that the spell is not wasted, but rather delayed, that would make it so that arcane casting and armor is a viable combination in my oppinion, preferably increase the time by flat time instead of percentages, because otherwise, with a percentage in time, say for example, 100% more cast time while wearing armor, wouldnt make much difference on spells like magic missile that have a cast time of one, but would make spells of big cast time nearly impossible to cast, instead i would really like if you could simply add a number on the total cast time of the spell, say 0 for no armor/robe, 2 for leather, 3 for mail and 4 for plate, basically, a negative Robe of Vecna. For example;

Arcane Missile: base cast time of 1, with plate 4 (from 0.6 seconds to 3 seconds)

Time Stop: base cast time of 9, with plate 13 (from 5.4 seconds to 7.8 seconds)

I would even like to apply this armor restriction to clerics as well in my games. And of course, if you guys really like this idea, change the game so that some enemy creatures benefit from this, turn a few fights against guys that are simply fighters in armor, to fighter-mages, to make it a little interesting.

I'm not a fan of the miscast penalty myself, so I'm always open to new ideas.

Unfortunately, combat scripting in the IE gets very dumb when casting times start matching or exceeding 10 (one full round). The engine assumes any spell is cast within a round, and can sometimes just go to the next round's action--e.g. the mage sits there casting for six seconds, then throws the spell away to use a sling. This is one of the reasons why Fixpack and the EEs actually use maximum casting times of nine (as in nine-tenths of a round) even for spells which say their casting time is a full round.

While it's easy enough to adjust casting times based on a fixed or percentage-based penalty, there's no way to specify a maximum cap.

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20 minutes ago, CamDawg said:

Unfortunately, combat scripting in the IE gets very dumb when casting times start matching or exceeding 10 (one full round). The engine assumes any spell is cast within a round, and can sometimes just go to the next round's action--e.g. the mage sits there casting for six seconds, then throws the spell away to use a sling.

But how many ENEMY mages are there that are restricted by not being able to cast spells in FIGHTER armor ? I would assume none. Yes, the player chars combat scripts might get here the short hand, but that depends on the script... for example, you can make a script that assumes +1 casting times, +2's and +3's, with specific spell specifically for that, can't you ? And besides, there should be a way to not interrupt spell casting; 0x402B ActionListEmpty() ? Or if worst case goes, then it won't just cast those spells.

And this is specifically a Tweakpack feature request, not a Fixpack.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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9 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

But you see, there's already this option for that. It's not in the Tweaks Anthology though, it's in Item Revision... and there's one in Full Plate and... yes, the Tweaks could use more options for this as sub components. But that would require consistent items, which can be a hard requirement for a mod installed so late in the game, while the Item Rev can have them as it needs to be installed quite near the start and the primary component makes the items consistant up to a decree, and it can be required to be installed first(and thus it is).

Okay, i will take a look at this mod, thanks!

3 hours ago, CamDawg said:

Unfortunately, combat scripting in the IE gets very dumb when casting times start matching or exceeding 10 (one full round). The engine assumes any spell is cast within a round, and can sometimes just go to the next round's action--e.g. the mage sits there casting for six seconds, then throws the spell away to use a sling. This is one of the reasons why Fixpack and the EEs actually use maximum casting times of nine (as in nine-tenths of a round) even for spells which say their casting time is a full round.

While it's easy enough to adjust casting times based on a fixed or percentage-based penalty, there's no way to specify a maximum cap.

Oh... so for programmers this is way more complicated than it seems, because of the BG's round system.

Can't someone adjust the round so that a round is acctualy 12 seconds instead of 6? and then adjust the time of all spells and APR to balance it out? just asking if it is possible, seems like too much work, but im just wondering if the possibility exist.

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7 minutes ago, mongretops said:

Can't someone adjust the round so that a round is acctualy 12 seconds instead of 6? and then adjust the time of all spells and APR to balance it out? just asking if it is possible, seems like too much work, but im just wondering if the possibility exist.

It doesn't work that way. See you could slow the game down, just run the game in 15 FPS... but it wouldn't work the way you wanted it to. You would need to shush the casting delay of 1 and 2 into 1, 3 and 4 into 2 and so forth. Half the projectile speeds. And the items&Haste would be OP, as hell as you double their effects. And walking speeds would be a smash, ... you would needs to edit all the creatures animations... not worth the effort, would be my bet.

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2 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

Doesn't Scales of Balance include an option to have casting time penalties on armour?

@subtledoctor is the issue of 10+ casting time spells not being taken into account by the AI something you considered with SoB?

Yes, SoB, FPPS, and (I think) IR all have options for armored casting to apply a casting time penalty.

I haven't considered that weakness of Ai scripts, but as Jarno says, the number of enemy mages in the game wearing armor is probably vanishingly small, so I'm not too concerned.  We could change the casting times of all spells to use a range of, say, 1-6 instead of 0-9, and that would build in a buffer just in case.  But TBH I don't think it's necessary.

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9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

the number of enemy mages in the game wearing armor is probably vanishingly small

Wouldn't it be...literally none? Armor disables spellcasting entirely in the vanilla game, so no enemies expected to use arcane spellcasting should have armor equipped.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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25 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Wouldn't it be...literally none? Armor disables spellcasting entirely in the vanilla game, so no enemies expected to use arcane spellcasting should have armor equipped.

Demon Knight has a large shield at least, so in some version of item revisions that I tried he had 50% to fail at spellcasting.

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1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

Demon Knight has a large shield at least, so in some version of item revisions that I tried he had 50% to fail at spellcasting.

I didn't consider shields, that's a valid point. There probably should've been an option to apply spellcasting failure/speed penalties only to armor, not shields...

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