Koson Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 IWD2 didn't add any disadvantages either, even to those clerics that should have some. Which makes me think (I could be wrong, of course) it's just a matter of how close one wants to follow the book(-s). Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 28, 2004 Author Share Posted January 28, 2004 IWD2 didn't add any disadvantages either, even to those clerics that should have some. Which is why we are, since this is BG2. Link to comment
Andyr Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Yeah, 3E and IWD2 handles Clerics quite differently to 2E. Many people think they are quite overpowered in 3E, in any case. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 28, 2004 Author Share Posted January 28, 2004 The Riddler bard kit got lost in the shuffle a few pages back... since this has turned into a cleric kit thread, I've retitled it appropriately. Let's start new threads for kits for other classes. Link to comment
Koson Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 OK. Should I keep digging after info about other gods / speciality priests, or do you have enough to go for now? Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Between the nine IWD2 kits plus the ones you've posted above, we actually have too many. Some are duplicates, though. Link to comment
Koson Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 IWD2 didn't add any disadvantages either, even to those clerics that should have some. Which is why we are, since this is BG2. Well, they're specialty priests, they get all their bonuses / special abilities / advantages as boons from their deities of choice, but they also keep all the perks from being a cleric in the first place. As I see it, they incur "disadvantages" or penalties when what a standard cleric is allowed to wear/use/do comes into conflict with the specialty priest's chosen god's dogma. So, if a god's clergy is not allowed to wear full plate, a SP would not wear it (thus "disadvantages: - may wear up to plate mail") while a vanilla cleric will. If there are no such conflicts or interdictions, why inflict some disadvantages where they shouldn't be only because other kits / classes have them? < Link to comment
Koson Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Between the nine IWD2 kits plus the ones you've posted above, we actually have too many. Some are duplicates, though. So you'll implement all of them? Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 I'm going to bypass the roleplaying argument here--players who want to roleplay will do it, regardless of the advnatages/disadvantages because roleplaying is fun in and of itself. For folks who want a different gameplay/tactical experience (or a different way to powergame!)... Every kit in BG2 has disadvantages to balance their advantages; that's what makes them interesting as alternatives. The fact that the cleric kits have nothing but upside stands out like a sore thumb. Choosing to kit your cleric is a no-brainer. There's not even thought applied in selecting the kit since they're mutually exclusive due to alignment restrictions. Balancing the advantages of the existing kits with some drawbacks IMHO will accomplish two important goals: it will make them interesting, since you will now have to actually think about kitting a cleric and it will bring them inline with every other kit in the game. As Grim mentioned, though, as currently planned it will be an optional component. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Between the nine IWD2 kits plus the ones you've posted above, we actually have too many. Some are duplicates, though. So you'll implement all of them? Sorry, s'more cross posting. Yes, with the caveat that Delainy remains my #1 priority. I'll work on these when I need a break from I_C_T's, ++ and ~s. Link to comment
Grim Squeaker Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Between the nine IWD2 kits plus the ones you've posted above, we actually have too many. Some are duplicates, though. So you'll implement all of them? Sorry, s'more cross posting. Yes, with the caveat that Delainy remains my #1 priority. I'll work on these when I need a break from I_C_T's, ++ and ~s. You'll never be free from I_C_Ts! They come to haunt you in your sleep! Link to comment
Grim Squeaker Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Ok here's my basic kit ideas: Battleguard of Tempus Chaotic Good, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil Automatically gains Martial Weapon: Axe and Weapon Focus: Axe feats Automatic profiency in Axes (Flails) and is able to Tempus' Strength 1/day (increase Strength by 6 for number of rounds equal to level) Domain spells: 1st: Magic Stone, Bless 2nd: Draw Upon Holy Might, Chant 3rd: Prayer, Animate Dead 4th: Blood Rage, Recitation 5th: Champion's Strength, Chaotic Commands 6th: Circle of Blades, Spiritual Wrath 7th: Power Word: Blind, Summon Monster VII 8th: Power Word: Stun, Summon Monster VIII 9th: Power Word: Kill, Summon Monster IX Converts to: Automatic profiency in Axes (Flails for non AoE) and can become specialised in them. Innate ability: Tempus' Strength 1/day (increase Strength by 6 for number of rounds equal to level) Domain spells remain. Demarch of Mask True Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil Free Blind-Fight feat +1 bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Pick Pockets Domain spells: 1st: Minor Mirror Image, Sleep 2nd: Blindness, Blur 3rd: Mirror Image, Invisibility Sphere 4th: Emotion: Despair, Improved Invisibility 5th: Shadow Monsters, Unholy Blight 6th: Greater Shadow Conjuration, Phantom Blade 7th: Shades, Soul Eater 8th: Mass Invisibility, Blasphemy 9th: Black Blade of Disaster, Executioner's Eyes SUGGESTIONS? Domain spells remain. Dreadmaster of Iyachtu Xvim Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil Tyrant's Dictum (all saves vs. their will spells are at +1 DC) +1 to all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate Domain spells: 1st: Command, Bane 2nd: Silence, Horror 3rd: Dire Charm, Rigid Thinking 4th: Cloak of Fear, Emotion: Despair 5th: Greater Command, Domination 6th: Power Word: Silence, Feeblemind 7th: Suffocate, Gate 8th: Flaying, Power Word: Blind 9th: Mass Dominate, Summon Monster IX Ok what does +1 DC mean? Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate bonuses could probably be converted into something to do with a charisma increase (and maybe intelligence and wisdom increase - you'd be bluffing that you are smarter than you are). Therefore I'd reckon they'd get an innate ability that adds +1 to Wis, Int and Chr for a number of rounds equal to level. Domain spells remain. Lorekeeper of Oghma Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil Oghma's Knowledge (+1 to Alchemy, Knowledge Arcana skills) Identify 1/Day Domain spells: 1st: Identify, Eagle's Splendor 2nd: Charm Person, See Invisible 3rd: Find Traps, Dispel Magic 4th: Malison, Shout 5th: Power Word: Silence, Greater Command 6th: Power Word: Stun, Symbol of Fear 7th: Great Shout, Symbol of Hopelessness 8th: Power Word: Kill, Symbol of Death 9th: Executioner's Eyes, Wail of the Banshee Bonuses to Lore Identifiy once per day innate Doman spells remain. Morninglord of Lathander Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, True Neutral Improved Turning Feat (free) Lathander's Renewal 1/day (cures 2x cleric level in hit points) Domain spells: 1st: Sunscorch, Faerie Fire 2nd: Lesser Restoration, Bull's Strength 3rd: Agannazar's Scorcher, Negative Energy Protection 4th: Shield of Lathander, Holy Smite 5th: Flame Strike, Raise Dead 6th: Heal, Fire Storm 7th: Greater Restoration, Sunbeam 8th: Aura of Vitality, Resurrection 9th: Meteor Swarm, Mass Heal Improved turning improves their undead turning. Not sure how we can implement it. Innate healing spell as description. Domain spells remain. Painbearer of Ilmater Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral Pain Touch 1/day (Touch weapon that causes a -2 penalty to Str and Dex for 10 rounds) Ilmater's Endurance 1/day (increase Con by 6 for a number of rounds equal to level) Domain spells: 1st: Minor Elemental Barrier, Protection From Evil 2nd: Unfailing Endurance, Aid 3rd: Magic Circle Against Evil, Cure Serious Wounds 4th: Holy Smite, Emotion: Hope 5th: Feeblemind, Holy Power 6th: Stoneskin, Harm 7th: Holy Word, Impervious Sanctity of Mind 8th: Symbol of Pain, Holy Aura 9th: Horrid Wilting, Summon Monster IX Innate abilities just as in description. Domain spells remain. Silverstar of Selune Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Chatoic Neutral Selune's Freedom 1/day (Freedom of Movement that lasts 1 round/level) Moon Shield 1/day (grants a +3 bonus to spell resistance that lasts 1 round/level) Domain Spells: 1st: Faerie Fire, Sanctuary 2nd: Moon Motes, Alicorn Lance 3rd: Moonblade, Protection From Fire 4th: Emotion: Rage, Ghost Armor 5th: Wall of Moonlight, Undead Ward 6th: Antimagic Shell, Divine Shell 7th: Planar Binding: Air Elemental, Planar Binding: Water Elemental 8th: Planar Binding: Fire Elemental, Planar Binding: Earth Elemental 9th: Prismatic Spray, Elemental Legion Innate ability: Selune's freedom as description Innate ability: Moon shield, +X% (Not sure about conversion) Domain spells remain. Stormlord of Talos Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil 5/- Electrical Resistance Destructive Blow 1/Day (gain a +2 bonus to hit and damage for a number of rounds equal to level) Domain spells: 1st: Shocking Grasp, Doom 2nd: Death Armor, Gedlee's Electric Loop 3rd: Storm Shell, Lightning Bolt 4th: Protection From Electricity, Static Charge 5th: Slay Living, Ball Lightning 6th: Whirlwind, Chain Lightning 7th: Tremor, Destruction 8th: Fire Storm, Acid Storm 9th: Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting Electrical resistance: +X% (Not sure about conversion) Innate ability: Destructive blow as description Domain spells remain (Thats really evil at 9th level) Watcher of Helm Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Lawful Evil Helm's Shield 1/day (grants a +2 bonus to saves for a number of rounds equal to level). Helm's Watch 1/day (grants a +2 armor bonus as well as a +2 armor bonus vs missiles for a number of rounds equal to level). Domain Spells: 1st: Protection From Evil, Armor of Faith 2nd: Spell Shield, Hold Person 3rd: Exaltation, Glyph of Warding 4th: Death Ward, Defensive Harmony 5th: Greater Command, Dismissal 6th: Circle of Blades, Globe of Invulnerability 7th: Spiritual Wrath, Impervious Sanctity of Mind 8th: Iron Body, Seven Eyes 9th: Aegis, Banishment Innate abilities as description. Domain spells remain. Ok I'm done... Link to comment
Harbinger Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Could the devine spells be handled in the same way as the arcane as way of balancing kits? For example a god of death would be more inclined to grant necromancy like spells than healing spells I would think. Just an idea which may or not be worthy. Link to comment
Koson Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 The trouble with the IWD2 kits as they are is that many of the domain spells (which you say will stay the same) are IWD-only spells, and it might not be easy to port those from one game to another (if you can do it, please, port the druidic spells too, those in BG2 as it is are mostly crap). And there's still no real penalties (unless you see implementing domain spheres as one) -> even though Demarchs are not allowed to wear better that studded leather by Mask, they're basking in full plate! PS. A SP of Iyachtu Xvim is called Authlim, not Dreadmaster. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Demarch of Mask--let's convert the +1 to Hide, Stealth, and Pick Pockets to Invisibility 1/day and then replace with Improved Invisibility at level 10 or something. Dreadmaster of Iyachtu Xvim--I interpret +1 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate as something closer to a (dire) charm or domination effect. I think it would be a bit more useful than a +1 to attributes for a few rounds. In terms of the the save bonuses, how about something more generic such as a +1/2 bonus to death saves. Morninglord of Lathander--just from the reading over on the IWD2 site, it appears that all non-evil clerics can get the improved turning, just that Morninglords get it for free. Let's try replacing this with an alternative anti-undead innate ability. Perhaps adapt a Bolt of Glory or Flame Strike that affects undead only? Silverstar of Selune--Let's go with Moonshield as +1%/level MR. Sormlord of Talos--same deal, let's go with +1%/level of electrical resistance, though in this case it's simply an inherent ability. Otherwise it looks good. Link to comment
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