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SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)


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I'm a little confused about the different illusions/dispel effects and I want to make sure I understand what they do.

Detect Invisibility: This will make people that I can't see visible regardless of the source that gave them invisibility. BUT it will not dispel illusions (like mirror images or project image) OR it will not get rid of the "Improved Invisibility" effect that makes you unable to be targeted by spells. This effect pulses every round for a set amount.

Detect Illusion: This does what Detect Invisibility does BUT it's only a one round proc and it will also dispel the "Improved Invisibility" effect plus Illusions up to level 2 (Reflected Image, Blur and Mirror Image)

Non-detection: This will protect your from your Invisibility, Improved Invisibility effects and Illusions to be dispelled but it will still allow the caster to attack you.

Oracle: This is just like "Detect Illusions" but will also work on Summoned Illusions like Project Image or other Higher level Illusions like Ghost Armor. I assume dispelling is the context of Project Image means killing the thing. I noticed it also mentions Mass Invisibility, which I suppose it means that Even though Detect Invisibility should make you visible to get rid of the Improved Invisibility effect from Mass Invisibility you need at least Oracle.

True Seeing: I can't tell if true seeing dispels stuff or if it just makes me not be affected by them. So if someone has Mirror Images and I cast True Seeing will the images go away for everybody? just me?  I guess the point is for True Seeing to be a better (higher level) Detect Invisibility but without outright killing what Oracle does.

Mind Blank: This feel like an upgraded Non-detection but, besides the fact that it works with mind stuff like confusion and charmed (the spell description https://gibberlings3.github.io/SpellRevisions/spells/arcane/level-8/mind-blank is vague about it) I'm not sure it what other way is better.

 

Talking about invisibility is this game is confusing to me because of the terms, you have a spell called invisibility, the fact that you CAN be invisible, the spell Improved Invisibility the effect that makes you not be targetable by spells that is associated with Improved Invisibilty,  the fact that when you cast Improved Invisibility you are also casting Invisiblity on yourself in a way AND tons of other spells that have invisibility effects but some are normal invisibility and some are improved.

 

 

 

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On 2/18/2020 at 7:17 PM, NdranC said:

Talking about invisibility is this game is confusing to me because of the terms, you have a spell called invisibility, the fact that you CAN be invisible, the spell Improved Invisibility the effect that makes you not be targetable by spells that is associated with Improved Invisibility,  the fact that when you cast Improved Invisibility you are also casting Invisiblity on yourself in a way AND tons of other spells that have invisibility effects but some are normal invisibility and some are improved.

In a sense, there are four kinds of invisibility (plus two edge cases):

  1. Stealth: for all intents and purposes, this is identical to normal invisibility (#2) but it is fragile: doing almost anything breaks it and makes you visible.
  2. Invisibility: enemies cannot see or target you; if an enemy has this, their sprite will disappear and there will be no target circle.  You can take some actions, like finding/disarming traps and casting some self-targeted buff spells; but any offensive action will dispel the invisibility and make you fully visible.  I think of this as "normal invisibility."
  3. Partial invisibility or "weak invisibility:" this is what happens when you cast Imp. Invisibility and then attack some one and become partially visible: your sprite will be translucent, you have an effective 4-point bonus to AC and saves, and you cannot be targeted by spells.  But you do have a selection circle, and you can be targeted by physical attacks and items like wands.  You can take any offensive or defensive action, nothing you yourself do can dispel the partial invisibility.  (Note: the Improved Invisibility spell actually applies both #2 normal invisibility and #3 partial invisibility.  Once you take an offensive action, you lose #2 but your retain #3. The spell makes it sound like single effect, but it's really two separate effects.)
  4. Sanctuary: apart from the horrible animation, this is functionally a lot like #2 normal invisibility. The list of things that you can do without dispelling it is slightly longer (open doors, loot chests) and more moddable (modders can set which spells are deemed "offensive" enough to cancel it).  But if you do something that cancels it, then you are left fully visible.  Enemies under the sanctuary effect have selection circles, and you can see where they are, but they cannot be targeted by attacks, items, or spells.
  5. * Mislead invisibility: this is like #2 normal invisibility, except nothing you do will cancel it, as long as the mislead clone is alive.  Cast Fireballs, attack with a sword, loot chests, you will stay fully invisible (not targetable by spells or attacks, or anything) as long as the clone is around.  I think of this as "super invisibility."  I once designed a 9th-level spell around it.
  6. * Protection from creature: this isn't really invisbility, per se, but it functions similar to super-invisibility: the target creature will utterly ignore you, even if you cast spells or attack it directly.

There are different ways of overcoming invisibility:

  • Opcode 47 and opcode 116 are both called "Cure Invisibility" in the IESDP.  They must target an invisible creature to work (generally, this means they must use an AoE).  I think they forcibly dispel #1 stealth, #2 normal invisibility, #3 partial invisibility, and #4 sanctuary.  I believe it cannot dispel #5 super invisibility, because it will not destroy a Mislead clone.
  • Opcode 136, called "Force Visible," must also target invisible creatures to work.  (So again, you see this in AoE spells.)  It will dispel #1 stealth and #2 normal invisibility, but will leave intact #3 partial invisibility and #4 sanctuary.  This means it will render sprites and selection circles visible; but if the target has #3 partial invisibility they will retain their AC and save bonuses and be untargetable by spells; and if they have #4 sanctuary they will still be untargetable by attacks or spells.
  • Opcode 193 is called "Invisibility Detection by Script."  This does not target invisible creatures to dispel invisibility; rather, it targets the person who wants to see invisible creatures.  This difference in the way it is targeted is important: it does not actually have any effect on invisible creatures!  It does not render their sprites or selection circles visible.  Rather, it simply makes any creatures valid targets for attacks by the caster, regardless of whether they are visible or invisible.  It will pierce #1 stealth and #2 normal invisibility (this is why, if you have party AI on, the caster might go attack an enemy you can't see - the script can see the enemy); it will pierce #3 weak invisibility, in that the AC and save penalties will not apply to attacks by this caster, and this caster will be able to target the partially invisible enemy with spells; it will pierce #4 sanctuary, making the sanctuaried enemy fully targetable; and it will pierce #5 super invisibility in the same way it pierces #2 normal invisibility.  Again: this does not dispel anything, or make anything visible to the player.  It only makes invisible creatures valid targets. 
  • Opcode 221 can cancel any spells with a particular secondary type - the classic example is Breach, which removes "combat protections."  Some spells have the secondary type "illusionary protection," including Invisibility, Improved Invisibility, Reflected Image, Mirror Image, and Blur; so opcode 221 could be used to dispel them all.  This can be limited by spell level - see below.
  • Opcode 337 can cancel any effects on a target, by effect.  You could remove all opcode 20 effects, while leaving in place all opcode 153 effects, or vice-versa.  I don't think anything in the game actually does this, with regard to invisibility.

The Non-detection effect (opcode 69) protects you from spells using opcode 47 and 116.  (The Non-detection spell, whether the vanilla version or the SR version, uses various different effects in addition to this.)  Let's mostly leave Non-detection aside for the moment...

SR "Detect Invisible" simply applies opcode 193 to the caster.  This means you can target anybody with partial invisibility with no penalties, and you can target anyone with the sanctuary effect.  But it does not dispel normal invisibility.  EDIT - actually maybe it does a one-time opcode 136 as well?  The point is that enemies with the benefits of partial invisibility (AC + save bonuses, untargetable by spells) or sanctuary (cannot be targeted) retain those benefits against most people; but the caster with opcode 193 gets to bypass them.  It is literally saying "I can see invisible things."  Nothing protects against this because there is nothing to protect - it only affects the caster.  (The proper counter to this, I suppose, is using Blindness against the caster.)

The 3rd-level priest spell "Invisibility Purge" applies opcode 116 to an area of effect.  It dispels stealth, normal invisibility, partial invisibility, and sanctuary. 

The 3rd-level wizard spell "Dispel Illusion" uses opcode 221 to remove any spells of 4th level or lower with the "illusionary protection" secondary type.  That means is dispels Sanctuary, Invisibility, and Improved Invisibility (both parts of it), as well as RI, MI, and Blur.  It does not dispel Shadow Door even though it is identical in effect to Improved Invisibility, because Shadow Door is 5th level.  (I hate this spell, I think the 4th-level cap is dumb.  My mod just lets wizards cast Invisibility Purge instead.)

"Oracle," at 5th level, is a one-time effect that blasts away all illusions.  It uses opcode 116 to dispel invisibility (and partial invisibility and sanctuary); and opcode 220 to dispel all spells in the school of illusion (so, including Improved Invisibility and its partial invisibility); and opcode 221 to dispel all spells with the "illusionary protection" secondary type (including Sanctuary).  It's a one-time blast of "no more illusions near me!" but enemies can go invisible immediately afterward and then you can't see them.  This isn't really designed to counter invisibility, it's more for Mirror Image and illusionary clones and summons.

"True Sight," in SR, dispels a bunch of low-level illusions (including stuff like MI and Blur) and applies opcode 136 to dispel normal invisibility and render sprites and selection circles visible, and applies opcode 193 to the caster to overcome partial invisibility and sanctuary, and makes the caster immune to Blindness.  Like 2nd-level Detect Invisible, it is really meant to help the caster overcome invisibility.

Counters: if you are invisible and want to stay that way,

-- Vanilla Non-detection can protect you from priests' Invisibility Purge.

-- Vanilla Spell Immunity: Divination and SR Non-detection can protect you from Invisibility Purge, Dispel Illusion, and Oracle, and protect you from some of the effects of True Sight.  (It can protect your Blur, but it won't stop the True Sight caster from having opcode 193 and seeing right through your sanctuary.)

...

Invisibility 10' radius is exactly like #2 normal invisibility; Shadow Door, Mass Invisibility, and Pixie Dust are exactly like Improved Invisibility (so #2 normal invisibility plus #3 partial invisibility), but they are high-level so they won't be dispelled by Dispel Illusion.

I think that more or less covers everything. 

Edited by subtledoctor
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Two notes:

1. Arcane Detect Invisibility performs a Force Visible opcode once per round for 5 rounds, too. That part of the spell can be protected by Non-Detection. This actually makes Detect Invisibility functionally a little stronger than Invisibility Purge (though Invisibility Purge uses the stronger "Cure Invisibility" opcode which does dispel improved invisibility/sanctuary/super invisibility? as well). SRR increased the length of Invisibility Purge to 1 turn (from SR's 5 rounds) in order to try to bridge the gap a little, but generally speaking, you'd still prefer to have Detect Invisibility.

2. I *think* 116, or Cure Invisibility, does force a Mislead or "super invisible" character into being visible (even though it does not destroy the clone), but I'm not a hundred percent sure. I'll have to test. (e): It does not, even though the vanilla/EE description of Purge Invisibility specifically mentions this effect as being able to penetrate Mislead. I kind of wish it did, because Mislead's super invisibility effect is stupid.

Thanks for the big explanation, Subtledoctor. It'd be nice to get a stickied version of it, :p. Detect Illusion is definitely my least favorite spell of all the different illusion-dispellers as well.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

1. Arcane Detect Invisibility performs a Force Visible opcode once per round for 5 rounds, too.

Yeah, and I actually don't love that, because it breaks the basic concept of the spell being something applied to the caster's visual abilities, not to enemy targets.  But, I understand there's not much to do about it if you want to maintain pre-EE compatibility.

For my part, my mod slightly extends what SR does by adding a sanctuary effect to all invisibility effects.  So Detect Invisible with its repeated 136 effects still only allows the caster to target the enemies exposed by it.  (This is EE-only though, because it has to do some funky stuff to conditionally maintain a translucency effect with the sanctuary.)

4 hours ago, Salk said:

I share Bartimaeus' sentiment about subtledoctor's extensive presentation of the invisibility status in the BG games.  I'd like to have it pinned somewhere in this Forum.

Thanks.  But to be clear, the 2nd half of that post is specific to how SR works.  Discussing how invisibility interacts with vanilla divination attacks and vanilla Non-detection would be a somewhat different post.

Edited by subtledoctor
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20 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Amazing Breakdown

Thank you, that really helped me understand what is going on. You broke it down really well. Thank you very much it was an amazing read.

I think I now understand some of the issues I was having with Slythe's Wife. I was Detecting Invisibility with Imoen, then I was trying to target her with my sorcerer. Since it complained that I couldn't target her with spells because she was under Partial Invisibility I just assumed Imoen couldn't either.

What about SR's Mind Blank? What is it's purpose over Non-Detection? Is it just Non-Detection + Mind-affecting spell protections? What is a mind-affecting spell protection? Is it everything that the Greenstone Amulet protects against? (Confers the wearer protection against charm, confusion, fear, domination, ESP, detect alignment, hold, stun, psionics, sleep and feeblemind.)

"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions and/or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information-gathering attempts by divination spells or abilities."

How does Non-Detection and/or Mind Blank interact with Opcode 221? What can I do to protect my Illusionary Protection spells?

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Yeah, that description needs to be rewritten. I'll get around to it eventually. It's much like Chaotic Commands: immunity to mind-altering effects like confusion, charm, fear, hold, stuff like that. Additionally, it also protects against Stun (which CC does not do), all Power Words (...which maybe CC should technically as well, but doesn't currently AFAIK), and a few divination spells like Oracle, Know Opponent, and Know Alignment. I'm not the biggest fan of this spell - it's just not powerful enough to warrant a level 8 slot, even if it's a level 8 spell in PnP. I wish I could say "at least its duration is ridiculously long!", but the difference between 8 hours and 1 turn/level is really not much.

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I think there is a bug with Arcane Scrolls. It's happened several times so far, if you try to cast AoE spells that normally you would be able to target the ground it will instead force you to target someone. I just noticed it the most trying to cast a scroll of Fear Resist. I know that I'm able to cast the cleric one by targeting the ground and I was expecting the same behavior from the scroll. I'm almost certain I've noticed this before with other scrolls but at the time I just chucked it to me being an idiot.

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Can I get a quick clarification on how Dispel Magic works in terms of determining the level? The description claims that it's based on the spell's level that it's being dispelled. So let's say for example that a target has Shield. This is a level 1 spell and I'm a caster of level 3. Does that mean that I have a 70% chance to dispel it? Is it based on caster level? So can I increase my chances with +Caster level gear?

Are the spell levels fixed or are they determined by the spell  progression tables? I ask because I modded my own and I change when mages and sorcerers get certain spell levels. (minor changes).

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I thought, "There's no way that Dispel Magic doesn't make it patently clear how it works!".

...But then I actually read the relevant part of the description:
"The chance of the dispel succeeding is determined by the experience level of the caster and the level of the magic being dispelled. The base chance of successfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the magic they are trying to dispel, their chance of success increases by 5%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is below the level of the magic they attempt to dispel, their chance of success decreases by 10%. However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure. Thus, if a caster is 10 levels higher than the magic they are trying to dispel, there is only a 1% chance of failure. Similarly, if the caster is 4 levels lower than the magic they are trying to dispel, there is only a 10% chance of success. Intuitively, this spell is almost useless if the level of the magic attempted to dispel is 5 or more levels higher than the caster."

...It never directly mentions that it's caster vs. caster, and indeed, seems to imply caster vs. spell level. Easily solved by just saying "For every level the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the caster of the magic they are trying to dispel[...]".

Edited by Bartimaeus
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15 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I thought, "There's no way that Dispel Magic doesn't make it patently clear how it works!".

...But then I actually read the relevant part of the description:
"The chance of the dispel succeeding is determined by the experience level of the caster and the level of the magic being dispelled. The base chance of successfully dispelling is 50%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the magic they are trying to dispel, their chance of success increases by 5%. For every level that the caster of Dispel Magic is below the level of the magic they attempt to dispel, their chance of success decreases by 10%. However, despite the difference in levels, there is always at least a 1% chance of success or failure. Thus, if a caster is 10 levels higher than the magic they are trying to dispel, there is only a 1% chance of failure. Similarly, if the caster is 4 levels lower than the magic they are trying to dispel, there is only a 10% chance of success. Intuitively, this spell is almost useless if the level of the magic attempted to dispel is 5 or more levels higher than the caster."

...It never directly mentions that it's caster vs. caster, and indeed, seems to imply caster vs. spell level. Easily solved by just saying "For every level the caster of Dispel Magic is above the level of the caster of the magic they are trying to dispel[...]".

Yeah I know that is how it works in vanilla, but based on that description I though SR changed it to be per magic level. Too bad I was really enjoying the idea of dispel magic based on specific spell level. So it just works like good old vanilla then. Is it worth it? Like let's say for a sorcerer. It always felt that enemies were just massively over leveled compared to my character so it never felt worth it.

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