SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[pochesun]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4e8h6xeb1rbiu4j/InLyY0GAdT.mp4

Haven't made any changes to Globes/DIspel Magic recently, and this is a fresh installation of SRR. Took a few tries, but that's the nature of Dispel Magic.

The vanilla description of MGoI specifically says this at the end: "The globe can be brought down by a Dispel Magic spell." As far as I know, no-one's ever changed it from not being dispellable to being dispellable: it's always been that way. The reason I introduced it as an option was because a user was attempting a solo playthrough and was finding the amount of dispel spam from SCS casters to be absurd, and I believe it was a subtledoctor idea that maybe globes should not be dispellable as a way to at least protect mages.

The latest repository of SRR now has all anti-magic spells' power levels set to 0 in order to always penetrate globes (plus so it's consistent). Normal SR has a mix of anti-magics having power levels set to their correct level and set to 0, and I thought I had tested this to make sure that ones set to their correct power level would correctly pierce globes, but I think what happened is that I only tested other spell protections like Spell Deflection.

Now i am totaly confused. First, Vanilla says can or can not? Second, if its always been indispellable why there is "1" by default instead of "0" in ini.settings file? (latest SRR zip pack) As far as i read it 1 means globes can be dispelled and 0 means can not. 

[Bartimaeus]

I wrote: "The vanilla description of MGoI specifically says this at the end: "The globe can be brought down by a Dispel Magic spell.""

In other words, globes have always been dispellable in vanilla. In other words, SR has not made any changes there, and neither has SRR since dispel_globes is defaulted to 1. But if you don't want globes to be dispellable, the option is there.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

Now I feel like I need to check this. In vanilla, MGOI blocks level 3 spells, but Spell Thrust has power level 4 so it can take down MGOI. GOI blocks up to level 4, and Secret Word has power level 5 so it can take down GOI. I don’t know about dispel, but I assume it has power level 0 to bypass MGOI.

So the only interaction that might be blocked is GOI blocking Spell Thrust. (But even there, I don’t think it does... right?)

I’m pretty sure SR preserves all if that. Correct?

I still need to work out a replacement system for all this. I’ll be facing this stuff soon enough in my game. The vanilla one is just too much of a mess, even with SR/SCS. I remember discussing it about 6-12 months ago and coming up with a rough proposal, but I can’t find it now.

[Bartimaeus]

The "protection from spell level" opcode, for whatever reason, doesn't naturally protect against area of effect projectile spells: that's why globes have stuff like fireball immunized against individually with the "protection from spell" opcode. Thing is, SR does stuff with Spell Shield that make it so that the base spell of e.g. Spell Thrust is still AoE, but casts subspells that are single target, which can get blocked by the globe. ...I think.

SR has some anti-magic spells that have power levels, and some that don't, and I assume Spell Thrust and Secret Word are set correctly or somebody would've noticed - I set them all to the proper level because it *seemed* like they worked against spell protections even when set, but I guess I must've forgotten to test globes. Whoops.

 

[pochesun]

42 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I wrote: "The vanilla description of MGoI specifically says this at the end: "The globe can be brought down by a Dispel Magic spell.""

In other words, globes have always been dispellable in vanilla. In other words, SR has not made any changes there, and neither has SRR since dispel_globes is defaulted to 1. But if you don't want globes to be dispellable, the option is there.

Yeah thats correct, but then my question from post  n1 still stands: why i can not dispell globe with Dispell or Remove Spell while i have 1 in my ini.settings file by default and i havent changed anything?

Edited May 31, 2020 by pochesun

[Bartimaeus]

@pochesun

Not sure, since I specifically tested that exact setup and it worked fine. My suggestion would be to cast minor globe of invulnerability and hammer yourself with like 10 dispel (not remove) magics to make absolute sure it's not working correctly. If that really doesn't work, then we'll need to properly troubleshoot it.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[pochesun]

@Bartimaeus i guess it was a false alarm  I tested it on BG 2 with console EXP upping and Dispel worked against both globes. I was misleaded in a way by the fact that in BG 1 i could not dispell globe from Kahrk from Firewine Bridge, and now i read about it that he is super resistant to all kind of dispell magic, and with ghost in Durlag's Tower i didnt do many tries. Well... happens.

Edited May 31, 2020 by pochesun

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, pochesun said:

@Bartimaeus i guess it was a false alarm  I tested it on BG 2 with console EXP upping and Dispel worked against both globes. I was misleaded in a way by the fact that in BG 1 i could not dispell globe from Kahrk from Firewine Bridge, and now i read about it that he is super resistant to all kind of dispell magic, and with ghost in Durlag's Tower i didnt do many tries. Well... happens.

No problem, it's been reported a number of times by folks that it doesn't work correctly and we've found that it does every time, so it's kind of a known "problem". It's the nature of Dispel Magic that it can seem like it's broken a lot of the time, .

I would assume that if Dispel Magic never works on that guy, it's probably because his level is artificially too high. Do you want me to fix your Spell Thrust so you can take down his globe?

Edited May 31, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[pochesun]

37 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

so it's kind of a known "problem"

great one!

I think Kahrk is level 13 (according to WIKI) and i casted dispells and remove magic as level 5 or 6 dont remember exactly. But i have heard that there are some enemies that are specifically very resistant to certain types of dispelling effects, and probably Kahrk is one of those (WIKI and Beamdog forum says the same). 

Regarding Spell Thrust, i think you have already done it (according to the commits of the latest SRR release)

[pochesun]

@Bartimaeus  an intersiting thing, kinda food for thought. I just tested casting Dispell Magic on Minor Globe of Invulnerability in BG EE 1 unmodded, and it seems that Dispell Magic wont work against Globe, it does not dispell it. Also, dunno how much this thread related to the topic, just in case https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/60024/cant-dispel-globe-of-invulnerability

As i said, only a food for thought, but its interesting how EE changed some things to make them different from vanilla (many of those very subtle) and people realize it so many years later.  

[subtledoctor]

I’m a bit confused by this discussion of Dispel Magic. SRR’s option is for Dispel to be blocked by MGOI... but not being blocked (the normal setup) just means the Dispel can go through MGOI and remove any dispellable buffs underneath the Globe. It doesn't mean the Dispel will remove the Globe itself.

Going through the Globe and Removing the Globe are two different things. If the former doesn’t happen, it’s a bug; if the latter doesn’t happen, it’s normal.

[pochesun]

3 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I’m a bit confused by this discussion of Dispel Magic. SRR’s option is for Dispel to be blocked by MGOI... but not being blocked (the normal setup) just means the Dispel can go through MGOI and remove any dispellable buffs underneath the Globe. It doesn't mean the Dispel will remove the Globe itself.

Going through the Globe and Removing the Globe are two different things. If the former doesn’t happen, it’s a bug; if the latter doesn’t happen, it’s normal.

You should not be 

Just a quick recap:

SRR offers dispelling Globe as default

I thought it didnt work as SRR intended in current patch but was wrong

Then Bartimaeus mentioned that in Vanila Globe always been dispellable and said that no-once change it since.

My last post is about EE turned out to have changed it so Globe can not be Dispelled (its not a bug record of proposition to make some changes - its jsut a thought).

 

 

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I’m a bit confused by this discussion of Dispel Magic. SRR’s option is for Dispel to be blocked by MGOI... but not being blocked (the normal setup) just means the Dispel can go through MGOI and remove any dispellable buffs underneath the Globe. It doesn't mean the Dispel will remove the Globe itself.

Going through the Globe and Removing the Globe are two different things. If the former doesn’t happen, it’s a bug; if the latter doesn’t happen, it’s normal.

& @pochesun

Okay, so this is actually more complicated than I thought, after investigating how every game does it.

Baldur's Gate: Description mentions that it can be brought down by a dispel magic, and it can be: all the effects of the spell are marked as being dispellable, and it does not immunize against Dispel Magic, so other effects (e.g. Stoneskin) would be dispelled as well.

Baldur's Gate II: Description mentions that it can be brought down by a dispel magic...but it cannot be: all the effects are marked as not dispellable. However, since the globe does not immunize against Dispel Magic, my guess is that other effects besides the globe would be dispelled (if the dispel is successful). And...that is the case - Stoneskin + MGoI + Dispel Magic = Stoneskin but not MGoI being dispelled. This is also true of the non-Minor version of the spell.

Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition: No mention of being dispellable, it isn't, but also doesn't immunize against Dispel Magic, so other effects are dispellable through it.

Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition: Same as above.

So now the standard versions of the SRR Globes can be brought down by a Dispel Magic, and do not immunize against it either, so in other words, it's essentially the weaker BG1 behavior - NOT the slightly buffed up BG2 behavior. The alternative version that I created that's enabled by settings.ini cannot be brought down by a Dispel Magic and immunize against it so that your spells also aren't dispelled - this version is the strongest kind of globe and does not exist in any vanilla game. I also just checked non-Revised SR, and those globes have the same behavior as SRR's standard globes, which is what I figured since I did not remember ever deciding to make globes dispellable when they weren't previously. SR's description specifically mentions it as well, so presumably it was by design.

...So, huh, maybe I'll make another option of that settings.ini option where the globe itself isn't dispellable but it also won't protect you from being dispelled either - aka BG2/BGEEs behavior. I personally don't like the dispellable version of the globes, I think it's just too weak, but having it straight up immunize you against Dispel Magic is probably too powerful, too, so the BG2 middle-ground makes a lot of sense.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

Huh.  I didn't realize SR was making globes dispellable.  I don't like that, because it blurs lines - it makes Dispel Magic something that both removes spell protections, and removes specific and combat protections.  With the BG2 version, Dispel is like Breach - it removes buffs but not spell protections.  And with SR, both Dispel and Breach are treated similarly by Dispelling Screen, so it makes sense that they would be treated similarly by Globes as well.

[Bartimaeus]

27 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Huh.  I didn't realize SR was making globes dispellable.  I don't like that, because it blurs lines - it makes Dispel Magic something that both removes spell protections, and removes specific and combat protections.  With the BG2 version, Dispel is like Breach - it removes buffs but not spell protections.  And with SR, both Dispel and Breach are treated similarly by Dispelling Screen, so it makes sense that they would be treated similarly by Globes as well.

Yeah, I don't like it either. I think I'm going to make the BG2 version the default. Thanks for making me investigate further, pochesun, .