SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[Bartimaeus]

Here is DLTCEP's documentation for #303:

I wonder if there's documentation that Near Infinity has for certain effects that DLTCEP doesn't have, too. I unfortunately really hate working inside of Near Infinity for simple usability reasons (really, the one thing I'd like for DLTCEP that Near Infinity has is the ability to have multiple editing windows open...oh well), so even if that's the case, that's still sadly never going to happen for me, .

Edited February 9, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[NdranC]

How is non-detection supposed to work exactly? I noticed my thief friend (now with a non-detection cloak) was able to be spotted from stealth with "Detect Invisibility" by a mage and then proceeded to be auto attacked down by Melf's Minute Meteors. It DID seem like the mage was not attempting to cast spells on him, so I assume that it works like a improved invisibility at that point? Can other people see him besides the mage? Can he backstab still?

[subtledoctor]

13 hours ago, NdranC said:

How is non-detection supposed to work exactly? I noticed my thief friend (now with a non-detection cloak) was able to be spotted from stealth with "Detect Invisibility" by a mage and then proceeded to be auto attacked down by Melf's Minute Meteors. It DID seem like the mage was not attempting to cast spells on him, so I assume that it works like a improved invisibility at that point? Can other people see him besides the mage? Can he backstab still?

It protects you from having invisibility or stealth dispelled.  So while a Mage with See Invisible can target and attack you, he cannot remove your stealth and enable his fighter buddies to attack you as well. 

In more technical terms, it protects you from "divination attacks" like Oracle and Invisibility Purge.  It is, in essence, Spell Immunity: Divination.  See Invisible and True Sight are not Divination attacks; they are personal-range spells, affecting only the caster's vision.  (Actually True Sight does both: it enables the caster to see invisible, and dispels illusory protections of nearby enemies.  Nondetection would protect you from the latter effect.)

Edited February 14, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

Everything what subtledoctor said, but also, who was the mage, and are you playing with SCS? SCS behavior with True Seeing/Detect Invisibility can be a little inconsistent - I had cases where they would not attack through Non-Detection after casting TS or SI, but I can't say for sure that it was 100% of the time. However, it's a scripting thing that SCS forces them to do, so it's probably not fixable on SR's side. It should also be noted that some creatures in SCS, like liches, have permanent Detect Invisibility that their scripting allows them to always pierce Non-Detection.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[NdranC]

Yes, it was SCS and at this point I don't remember the mage but so far behavior has been consistent. Mages that cast Detect Invisibility can "attack" invisible creatures under non-detection but are unable to cast spells on them. I have noticed though some weird behavior with companions. If Imoen casts Detect Invisibility her script will "autoattack" npcs that are invisible at the moment but I wouldn't be able to see them and therefor unable to tell her to manually attack them because I can't click them. I think this has happened twice but it was in the middle of a chaotic battle so I might have misunderstood something.

I had a rough battle with the mage that accompanies Slythe in the undercellar. She had a lot of the protections you can expect from SCS but she did something that I didn't quite understand at that point. I think she used Shadow Door, I now realize that according to Shadow Door's description it can only be dispelled with True Sight (which I don't have). The weird thing was that she would "appear" cast a spell and disappear again. I might be remembering wrong, but isn't shadow door improved invisibility? I though when you attack under Improved Invisibility you are "visible" to be attacked but remain partially hidden for target spells. Now the thing is, I don't know if this behavior is caused by shadow door or the fact that she has this scripted permanent invisibility? I not sure how that behavior gets to play out.

She ended up using her entire summon spell list (btw supper OP npc don't have summon limits *bastars*), ended up having to kill a djinn, efreet, air elemental, several berserker ogres, sword spiders, wyverns. Three party members died until I FINALLY realized that I could solve this issue with a simple web which would prevent her from automatically going invisible again every round if she got webbed. Without being able to cast Secret Word directly (I took your suggestion and only Picked Secret Word instead of Thrust) I was unable to do anything with spells and she would not be there enough time for melees to get to her. She was also protected vs missiles so range couldn't do much.

 

Edit: I'm also finding a little hard to understand the logic behind some of the spell protections. For example Magic Resistance will protect you from a web, from a fireball and from a magic missile, so will Minor Globe of Invulnerability but Spell deflection doesn't work with webs but it will protect you from a fireball?

I though maybe the logic was that webs once summoned are a physical object that is not magical but then magic resistance and minor globe still protects vs web and Oil. I guess under that logic then they should protect you vs summons spells since the creatures are magically created. Maybe it's an engine thing, just a little unintuitive from my end.

Edit2: Also Mirror Images protects you from AoEs? Kinda odd.

Edited February 17, 2020 by NdranC

[Bartimaeus]

Mirror Image: Should not protect you from AoE. I think I recall that someone else playing on the EEs thought this as well. You do have the "Mirror Image Fix" subcomponent installed, right? I just installed SRR on BG2EE with that subcomponent and cast a fireball spell on myself twice - Mirror Image did nothing.

Spell Deflection: It's an engine issue, not a logic one. If I could make Spell Deflection correctly protect against stationary spells (spells that "stick" in place, like clouds, Web, and Ice Storm), I would. Unfortunately, nobody knows how to do this in a way that doesn't break Spell Deflection yet. Note that each Spell Deflection already mentions that it cannot protect against stationary spells. I kind of thought up of a solution a while ago for this, but the key word was "kind of": it was too janky and the potential for much bigger problems too great.

Scripts attacking through Non-Detection + Invisibility: Yeah, it's an inconsistency that can't really be fixed, . Character and creature scripts think they should be able to see through invisibility but they can't, yet can be script-forced to attack through it.

Slythe: What you're describing sounds a lot like spirit trolls' "natural invisibility" ability, where after making an attack or casting a spell, they go back to being invisible again very quickly. I hate that ability, so I can certainly emphathize, haha. Shadow Door does not re-cast the invisibility after using it, and, as a matter of fact, Detect Invisibility does dispel Shadow Door's invisibility effect (but not the improved invisibility effect - I just tested this in BG2EE to make sure my memory was correct, and indeed it is). I am unsure what the issue would be here - I'm not terribly familiar with Slythe or his abilities in SCS, so I can't rightly say whether this should be happening or not (it sounds like it shouldn't, though).

(e): empathize, not emphasize

Edited February 18, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

On 2/9/2020 at 12:30 AM, NdranC said:

I have a question, my friend (in our multiplayer game) is playing a backstabbing thief and he is complaining a little that with the multiplayer lag and delay and sometimes desyncs finding the backs of enemies is becoming a frustrating experience. I know enemies ignore this rule and they can just backstab from any angle. I was wondering if you happen to know of a way for me to modify a script file somewhere to give players this behavior. Just curious if you happen to know offhand how to do it or at least the name of the script file that I would have to find with nearinfinity.

This would probably need an .exe hack. I think there was a ToBEx component for it for BG2/BGT.

[subtledoctor]

13 hours ago, NdranC said:

. I have noticed though some weird behavior with companions. If Imoen casts Detect Invisibility her script will "autoattack" npcs that are invisible at the moment but I wouldn't be able to see them and therefor unable to tell her to manually attack them because I can't click them. I think this has happened twice but it was in the middle of a chaotic battle so I might have misunderstood something.

This is the nature of it: invisibility detection allows the invisible target to be attacked, but the target does not actually become visible so they cannot be targeted by things that need a selection circle. Scripts will see a valid target for physical attacks so that’s what they do. An answer is to turn off party AI.

FWIW my Revised Invisibility component in Tome & Blood addresses this. It actually makes invisible creatures targetable by someone with invisibility detection, so you can cast spells at them. But they are still invisible to everyone without invisibility detection. (It does this by cannibalizing the Sanctuary effect; a by-product is, you can do more stuff while invisible, like opening doors and looting containers.)

Edited February 17, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

This would probably need an .exe hack. I think there was a ToBEx component for it for BG2/BGT.

We already solved this with opcode 303 with type 4, actually.

[NdranC]

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Slythe: What you're describing sounds a lot like spirit trolls' "natural invisibility" ability, where after making an attack or casting a spell, they go back to being invisible again very quickly. I hate that ability, so I can certainly emphasize, haha. Shadow Door does not re-cast the invisibility after using it, and, as a matter of fact, Detect Invisibility does dispel Shadow Door's invisibility effect (but not the improved invisibility effect - I just tested this in BG2EE to make sure my memory was correct, and indeed it is). I am unsure what the issue would be here - I'm not terribly familiar with Slythe or his abilities in SCS, so I can't rightly say whether this should be happening or not (it sounds like it shouldn't, though).

The name of the person is https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Krystin. She is Slythe's girlfriend/wife. According to the wiki she has a ring of invisibility but I'm not sure why that would be working differently. I casted "Detect Invisibility" twice and she would disappear after casting a spell in less than 6 seconds. (Also this ring was not in the loot once I killed her btw). Also if she popped for a second and I tried to cast a spell on her I would get the "can't target invisible or sanctuaried creatures" error. I guess it's possible she was also under the effects of improved invisibility and I didn't noticed when she casted it, but I only saw Shadow Door.

Shadow Door: So it's just normal invisibility? The description only mentions "True Sight". I feel like the spells sounds a little weak compared to Improved Invisibility but maybe I'm wrong. Haven't tried it obviously.

Stuff with Charges: I've noticed some inconsistencies with some charge items (non-wands). Like the Ring on Invisibility sold in Ulgoth's Beard it was being sold with 7 charges even though it's supposed to max out at 3. Once you use the 7 charges it will recharge up to 3. I think there is another item like this but I don't remember. From now on, I'm gonna have a text document open when I play to write down all the questions/feedback I can think of.

Mirror Images: So I just tested some more and I think it's wands that are not patched. If I cast skull trap it will ignore mirror images but if I cast fireball from a wand it will hit an image.

Horn of Kazgaroth: I don't know if you care about this kind of feedback but the description is off compared on how the item actually works. Claims it works for 60 second but it's actually 30 secs (5 rounds). It also claims it gives "Magic Resistance" but obviously is not. Just flavor text errors.

Dagger of Venom: I noticed that it seems the poison ability from this dagger doesn't stack with Poison Weapon (assassin). I only see 1 save vs death. Probably intended but just checking.

Spell Deflection: yeah it's understandable, I know the description says how it works so I assumed it would work that way but I though it would also apply to immunity and magic resistance. In my head, if I use magic to conjure webs, then they already exist as a physical object, they are not "magical energy" anymore. So in my head you would think they work like another summon, and not be stopped by anti magic stuff. Now i know how it works so I can deal with it better.

Dispelling Screen: How the f..k does this work? Is this a spell I can get in the future? Enemies have it a lot but I don't know how to counter it.

Aec'Letec: This is the demon you fight in Ulgoth's Beard once you get the dagger from Durlag's Tower. He didn't use once his iconic Death Gaze attack. I assume you don't touch this at all but just checking if you modded this and if you know if "Death Ward" would've protected against it.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[NdranC]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

This is the nature of it: invisibility detection allows the invisible target to be attacked, but the target does not actually become visible so they cannot be targeted by things that need a selection circle. Scripts will see a valid target for physical attacks so that’s what they do. An answer is to turn off party AI.

FWIW my Revised Invisibility component in Tome & Blood addresses this. It actually makes invisible creatures targetable by someone with invisibility detection, so you can cast spells at them. But they are still invisible to everyone without invisibility detection. (It does this by cannibalizing the Sanctuary effect; a by-product is, you can do more stuff while invisible, like opening doors and looting containers.)

In my current playthrough I'm only using scales of balance and only for the better weapon styles component and everybody can drink all potions. I love the potion one. The styles so far I like but I have some minor balance concerns with 2 handed sword/dual-wielding vs fencing. Minsc is just destroying everything, he crits all the time and for really high numbers. It's making my assassin friend a little salty that he was to work so hard for 40 hits but minsc just sits there and is super accurate has supper crits and supper damage. Maybe the Thac0 bonus is a little much but I'm not done with the game.

The shield one causes a lot of noise and seems to proc more than once per round some times and none other times. Didn't test it very much since I don't have a shield user anymore and enemies don't seem to use this often/at all.

Fencing feels weak. I would love if fencing would give more crit or just more thac0. If the idea of being a fencer is to sacrifice damage for precision this is not conveyed very well (so far).

Dual-wielding seems good.

I also noticed that your changes get reported twice in the Thac0 breakdown. For example it would say something like this

Base Thac0: 16

Fencing: -1

Dagger of Venom: -3

Tha dagger of venom should be -2 but it says it's -3 because it's adding the fencing even though fencing is already a separate item. The math ends up correct though, so it seems like it's only a visual bug.

Anyway don't want to turn this into a Scales of Balance discussion but I will definitely will try a subtledoctor mod heavy playthrough next. 

[subtledoctor]

Shadow Door is supposed to make you Improved Invisible IIRC. 

What you saw with Slythe is similar to what I’ve seen with Silke in Beregost: she goes invisible, moves around a bit, then I see some spell animations - seemingly, she casts a few buff spells on herself - but she stays invisible. Then she does something offensive - usually a Lightning Bolt at poor Imoen - and turns visible. 

It’s almost like the game treats her invisibility like Sanctuary, or something. Like certain spells don’t break the invisibility. Which I found confusing at the time, since I thought all spellcasting is supposed to break invisibility. 

I’m pretty sure it’s an SCS thing. Definitely has to do with her combat script.

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, NdranC said:

The name of the person is https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Krystin. She is Slythe's girlfriend/wife. According to the wiki she has a ring of invisibility but I'm not sure why that would be working differently. I casted "Detect Invisibility" twice and she would disappear after casting a spell in less than 6 seconds. (Also this ring was not in the loot once I killed her btw). Also if she popped for a second and I tried to cast a spell on her I would get the "can't target invisible or sanctuaried creatures" error. I guess it's possible she was also under the effects of improved invisibility and I didn't noticed when she casted it, but I only saw Shadow Door.

Shadow Door: So it's just normal invisibility? The description only mentions "True Sight". I feel like the spells sounds a little weak compared to Improved Invisibility but maybe I'm wrong. Haven't tried it obviously.

Stuff with Charges: I've noticed some inconsistencies with some charge items (non-wands). Like the Ring on Invisibility sold in Ulgoth's Beard it was being sold with 7 charges even though it's supposed to max out at 3. Once you use the 7 charges it will recharge up to 3. I think there is another item like this but I don't remember. From now on, I'm gonna have a text document open when I play to write down all the questions/feedback I can think of.

Mirror Images: So I just tested some more and I think it's wands that are not patched. If I cast skull trap it will ignore mirror images but if I cast fireball from a wand it will hit an image.

Horn of Kazgaroth: I don't know if you care about this kind of feedback but the description is off compared on how the item actually works. Claims it works for 60 second but it's actually 30 secs (5 rounds). It also claims it gives "Magic Resistance" but obviously is not. Just flavor text errors.

Dagger of Venom: I noticed that it seems the poison ability from this dagger doesn't stack with Poison Weapon (assassin). I only see 1 save vs death. Probably intended but just checking.

Spell Deflection: yeah it's understandable, I know the description says how it works so I assumed it would work that way but I though it would also apply to immunity and magic resistance. In my head, if I use magic to conjure webs, then they already exist as a physical object, they are not "magical energy" anymore. So in my head you would think they work like another summon, and not be stopped by anti magic stuff. Now i know how it works so I can deal with it better.

Dispelling Screen: How the f..k does this work? Is this a spell I can get in the future? Enemies have it a lot but I don't know how to counter it.

Aec'Letec: This is the demon you fight in Ulgoth's Beard once you get the dagger from Durlag's Tower. He didn't use once his iconic Death Gaze attack. I assume you don't touch this at all but just checking if you modded this and if you know if "Death Ward" would've protected against it.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

Shadow Door is the same spell as Improved Invisibility but is faster to cast, can only self-target, and does a short AoE maze effect on opponents if they're too close when it's cast. The point I was trying to make here is that Detect Invisibility dispels the invisibility portion of it (but not the improved invisibility), so the character should at least have their selection circle visible after casting Detect Invisibility.

Charges: Yep, a while back I asked people to notice charges inconsistencies like this to fix, but I never got much feedback there.

Wands: Ah, that would make more sense. I'll figure out a way to patch them and any other AoE spells on IR's side if it detects the Mirror Image subcomponent being installed.

Horn of Kazgaroth: This is the described ability in IRR: "Globe of Power (1x per day): user loses 10% of their health, but gains a +2 bonus to AC and saving throws and immunity to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells for 5 rounds". It sounds like another mod may have overwritten IRR's description?

Dagger of Venom: I would expect it to stack.

Dispelling Screen: Dispelled by a single cast of Dispel Magic or Remove Magic. SCS is what is giving it to people. You can read all spell descriptions in the readme spell files in the spell_rev folder.

Death Gaze: Nope, not touched by SR/R. Also, no, Death Ward does *not* protect against it, and I guess it should!

@subtledoctor Invisibility has never broken from self-targeted friendly spellcasting.

Vanilla Invisibility description:

"[...] The caster cannot perform any actions that manipulate the environment around him, such as opening doors, disarming a trap, or opening a chest. The caster can, however, cast defensive spells on himself and fellow party members. And if he attacks, he immediately becomes visible, although the invisibility enables him to attack first."

Edited February 18, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[NdranC]

22 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Shadow Door is the same spell as Improved Invisibility but is faster to cast, can only self-target, and does a short AoE maze effect on opponents if they're too close when it's cast. The point I was trying to make here is that Detect Invisibility dispels the invisibility portion of it (but not the improved invisibility), so the character should at least have their selection circle visible after casting Detect Invisibility.

Ah ok, then I think it's pretty good.

Quote

Charges: Yep, a while back I asked people to notice charges inconsistencies like this to fix, but I never got much feedback there.

So far, The ring of invisibility started with 7 charges but ended at 3 and the staff of striking started at 20 and it's now at 25. I'll keep an eye out for more.

Quote

Horn of Kazgaroth: This is the described ability in IRR: "Globe of Power (1x per day): user loses 10% of their health, but gains a +2 bonus to AC and saving throws and immunity to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells for 5 rounds". It sounds like another mod may have overwritten IRR's description?

This is what I mean, not the ACTUAL effect but the "lore" effect above. Like I said I wasn't sure you care about those but I noticed it so I figured I would check.

Quote

Dispelling Screen: Dispelled by a single cast of Dispel Magic or Remove Magic. SCS is what is giving it to people. You can read all spell descriptions in the readme spell files in the spell_rev folder.

Wow, I completely misunderstood what this did. I though it was actually dispelling my stuff with a chance. They must have been sneaking a dispell magic here and there. Urgg Real Time with Pause combined with 20 enemies giving full verbose logs that I have to comb through every half a second to figure out that just happened can lead me to suck problems i guess. My bad. I'm starting to think I should get dispel magic on my sorc

[Salk]

Yes, it seems there is a discrepancy between the Horn's description and the description of the Globe of Power effect there but it's actually more of a misunderstanding.

The partial magic resistance would be the temporary immunity to spells from level 1 to 3. 

I agree that with magic resistance the player assumes we are talking of MR.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Salk