SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[pochesun]

@Bartimaeusthank you for detailed explanation. 

[TheLoneTremere]

I found an interesting interaction between grease and freedom of movement/potion of freedom. If you drink the potion and walk around through the spell it causes your character to go unconscious; was this intentional or a bug that i am experiencing?

[Bartimaeus]

48 minutes ago, TheLoneTremere said:

I found an interesting interaction between grease and freedom of movement/potion of freedom. If you drink the potion and walk around through the spell it causes your character to go unconscious; was this intentional or a bug that i am experiencing?

Uh...SEEMS like an oversight, but I guess I'm not a hundred percent sure. Does freedom of movement mean you can never fall and slip on ice or anything else slippery?

[TheLoneTremere]

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Uh...SEEMS like an oversight, but I guess I'm not a hundred percent sure. Does freedom of movement mean you can never fall and slip on ice or anything else slippery?

 

Well, it doesn't slow them down as per part of the spell, but i think freedom of movement might be intended to not  be thrown down and unconscious on the grease pile. But, in all honesty, i don't really see a huge issue with leaving the way it is, tbh.

[pochesun]

6 hours ago, TheLoneTremere said:

 

Well, it doesn't slow them down as per part of the spell, but i think freedom of movement might be intended to not  be thrown down and unconscious on the grease pile. But, in all honesty, i don't really see a huge issue with leaving the way it is, tbh.

If its a bug it better be fixed

[subtledoctor]

If anything, I would think the overconfidence of being affected Free Action might make you more likely to slip and fall...

I believe the “fall down” effect uses the Sleep opcode, so if you want Free Action to immunize you to Grease, you need to either 1) use opcode 101 to make Free Action protect from all sorts of Sleep; or 2) find every spell and item that grants Free Action and give them and give the opcode 206 protection against Grease specifically. 

Personally, I say leave it alone. Free Action doesn’t mean you can’t fall! (A low-powered Levitation spell might be interesting, not for actual flying, but just to give you immunity to Grease/Entangle/Web-type spells.)

EDIT - getting philosophical here, but shouldn’t Hold spells include a Sleep effect? Actual paralysis would make you fall down... I guess that would require a second Sleep opcode, just as there is a second movement speed opcode and a second Hold opcode. Then you could have 1) basic Sleep; 2) magical telekinetic-style Hold-in-place; and 3) paralysis, which would be a combination of both effects. (Or maybe ‘Stun’ should cause paralysis - that would be a way to differentiate it from Hold.)

Edited April 18, 2020 by subtledoctor

[pochesun]

On 4/17/2020 at 5:45 AM, TheLoneTremere said:

I found an interesting interaction between grease and freedom of movement/potion of freedom. If you drink the potion and walk around through the spell it causes your character to go unconscious; was this intentional or a bug that i am experiencing?

This interraction is interesting. I assume it was made this way purposefully and @subtledoctor has a great point there: overconfidence and unnatural ability to suddenly move "too" freely might cause character to fall. I believe its one of those things which makes Baldur's gate such an awesome game - sublte but very poignant details a player can never suspect of but once found about making him or her smile. I agree to leave it as it is, but i think it might me worth testing with original Baldur's Gate EE (without spell revision) and see how it goes there. Also, would be interesting to know if its that kind of interraction when a character should pass a Save check every turn (if he fails - he falls unconsious) or its jsut a permanent effect. 

P.S. i just checked several websites with effects and spells description. No one mentions this kind of effect but every description of the spell (free action) or status (free action) says it should grant Immunity to movement hindrance, including grease. I honetly do not know how to interpret this word at all, should it be a complete immunity to all possible effects even remotely close to movement hindrance or it allows some stipulations (like the one we are discussing). 

Edited April 18, 2020 by pochesun

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I believe the “fall down” effect uses the Sleep opcode, so if you want Free Action to immunize you to Grease, you need to either 1) use opcode 101 to make Free Action protect from all sorts of Sleep; or 2) find every spell and item that grants Free Action and give them and give the opcode 206 protection against Grease specifically.

This was what I didn't want to think about and was why I was seriously considering it from a thematic/design viewpoint. Free Action is all about being free of effects that slow or stop you, and...hmm, well, actually, I guess I'm still not sure. In P&P, if you had Free Action or Freedom of Movement or whatever it's called applied, and you walked through terrain that could trip you (like...a spiky bramble patch or something, IDK), would you be protected from such? My guess is yes, because tripping is really just stronger version of "slowing down" through whatever physical mechanisms, but I'm not entirely sure.

Regarding Hold vs. Paralysis vs. Sleep: Yeah, I don't think of Paralysis as being the same as Hold, even though they do use the same opcode. Paralysis should really be treated as a different status, but we're dealing with the hand we got.

[subtledoctor]

But does that mean Free Action would protect against actual sleep? What about some dude grappling you? What about things/people blocking your path? What about not just tripping and falling to the floor, but falling down a hole or cliff? 

It’s not worth spending too much time pondering the slippery slope. Better to simply rule that Free Action prevents effects that magically immobilize you. A slippery floor, which was made slippery by magic, is a real edge case. 

Re: paralysis - you could do that with Stun, to make it something other than high-level Hold. But then protection from Sleep would divide the effect. Like I say, it would need a second Sleep opcode to do it right. 

[pochesun]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

But does that mean Free Action would protect against actual sleep? What about some dude grappling you? What about things/people blocking your path? What about not just tripping and falling to the floor, but falling down a hole or cliff? 

It’s not worth spending too much time pondering the slippery slope. Better to simply rule that Free Action prevents effects that magically immobilize you. A slippery floor, which was made slippery by magic, is a real edge case. 

Re: paralysis - you could do that with Stun, to make it something other than high-level Hold. But then protection from Sleep would divide the effect. Like I say, it would need a second Sleep opcode to do it right. 

Sorry if i am being obtuse here, does Grease cause character without any free action effects tripping and falling? (As i remember Grease forces character to save vs spell or trip and fall, if save succesful then character becomes encumbered and keeps moving slowly). If regular Grease works this way then i like your logic regarding "Free Action prevents effects that magically immobilize you".

[TheLoneTremere]

On a side note, i think if you install SCS and SR; the shield spell does not block Mordekaine's force missile as it should. Oh, and for some reason i think xan in the romantic encounter mod/scs might also obstruct protection from the elements as you are not able to select which element you want to use when you cast the spell, for whatever reason.

[pochesun]

On 4/19/2020 at 9:58 PM, TheLoneTremere said:

On a side note, i think if you install SCS and SR; the shield spell does not block Mordekaine's force missile as it should. Oh, and for some reason i think xan in the romantic encounter mod/scs might also obstruct protection from the elements as you are not able to select which element you want to use when you cast the spell, for whatever reason.

Who is Mordekaine  ?

[Jarno Mikkola]

3 hours ago, pochesun said:

Who is Mordekainen  ?

"He" was one of the 8 player character in the games that became to be the D&D. There's a lot of spells named after it. The circle of eight named after those too... the same answer in video format.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[TheLoneTremere]

Interesting, it would also seem that cure disease also removes feeble-mind, yet does not seem to indicate in either the spells description, that is either cure disease or feeblemind itself; and it does not remove the feeblemind's icon on the portrait after thus being removed.

 

I think this is more of a conflict with SCS,  But i will continue testing. 

[pochesun]

12 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

"He" was one of the 8 player character in the games that became to be the D&D. There's a lot of spells named after it. The circle of eight named after those too... the same answer in video format.

Thank you for the link, was insightful. Though i still cant figure out what Mordekaine's force missile is (mentioned by @TheLoneTremere)   I just cant find it among any spells or abilities.

Also curious if those bugs found by @TheLoneTremerefixasble? Like the one with cure disease is a weird one, since i clearly remember that during installation of SCS the component related to cure spells was skipped due to presence of the better version of it in SR. Hence i am not sure it is a conflict with SCS.