SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[FixTesteR]

23 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Never found a good formula for Goodberry. 1 hp/level, for example, is 50 HP per cast at at 10th level, plus it can be used by fighters without needing to be cast.

I see what you mean. It really is hard to come up with something good about goodberries. But yes, it would effectively outclass cure light wounds. Or maybe goodberries should regenerate life, just not at a pace of a regenerate spell. Anyway, I'll give it much more thought and come back if I come up with something.

 

So, regarding Non-Detection, a creature under the effects of, say, True Seeing, can single target an improved invisible creature that has non-detection? But I find this in conflict with this:

On 2/22/2021 at 4:09 PM, Bartimaeus said:

By casting this spell, the wizard makes the recipient undetectable by spells such as Detect Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, and True Seeing

What am I missing? They are undetectable but can still be targeted? So the wizard under the effects of True Seeing bypasses the fact that the recipient is undetectable by True Seeing? Which means he is detectable ...

Then, there is the question of, say, Glitterdust. That could reveal a target, right? So there are a few alternative means to take care of an II N-D creature.

If I'm not mistaken N-D also prevents a thief from detecting the creature. Right?

[FixTesteR]

23 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Shameless plug:  my mod addresses Goodberries.  Totally compatible with SR/SRR.

Thanks, I'm checking it out. But this one is really a bit ... shameless. Some liberal changes I'm truly looking for more ... subtlety

Anyway, off topic: I read about your NPC_EE. Does it replace the Level1NPCs completely? I used the latter in my last installation and it was a bit painful because it's not meant for EE so there were errors. I kinda don't wanna go through that ordeal anymore if possible. I guess it might also be possible to just EEKeeper every NPC I wanna take with me, and leave the rest in vanilla state. Right? But, as you wrote, that would take more time and interrupt my game. So if your mod enables me to change stats and proficiencies of a character, and in some cases, their class/kit, and let's me level them up from level 0, then that's what I'm looking for!

Thanks. I like your nickname.

Edited February 23, 2021 by FixTesteR

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

I see what you mean. It really is hard to come up with something good about goodberries. But yes, it would effectively outclass cure light wounds. Or maybe goodberries should regenerate life, just not at a pace of a regenerate spell. Anyway, I'll give it much more thought and come back if I come up with something.

 

So, regarding Non-Detection, a creature under the effects of, say, True Seeing, can single target an improved invisible creature that has non-detection? But I find this in conflict with this:

What am I missing? They are undetectable but can still be targeted? So the wizard under the effects of True Seeing bypasses the fact that the recipient is undetectable by True Seeing? Which means he is detectable ...

Then, there is the question of, say, Glitterdust. That could reveal a target, right? So there are a few alternative means to take care of an II N-D creature.

If I'm not mistaken N-D also prevents a thief from detecting the creature. Right?

This is all a matter of language, but "detection" is whether other characters/creatures know where they are. In other words, if you are invisible and do not take any hostile actions (which would reveal yourself and make it so you have been detected), and you have Non-Detection up, then nothing except a Spell Thrust that incidentally hits you that's targeted at a nearby creature can take down Non-Detection and make it so you are detected. But the spell is "Non-Detection", not blanket "Non-Divination", so detection is what it's there to protect against. Although now that I think about it, Non-Detection should really not protect e.g. Oracle from dispelling, say, Mirror Image - just the invisibility/stealth state - but I believe this is impossible or at least very difficult to change in at least ToBEx games (whereas I can think of a way to do it in the EE games...but would it be worth the bother?).

IIRC, I believe thieves' Detect Traps is hardcoded to always dispel all invisibility and illusions, which we cannot change the behavior of, so actually, it's a pretty hard counter in of itself against all forms of illusions.

I don't...believe Glitterdust or Faerie Fire could be used to reveal a target, but don't quote me on that.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

So if your mod enables me to change stats and proficiencies of a character, and in some cases, their class/kit, and let's me level them up from level 0, then that's what I'm looking for!

NPC_EE allows you to make some class changes (within reason) at install-time, and make kit and proficiency changes in-game. I think SCS has a component tgat goes further, letting you choose class, kit, and profs in-game. It comes at the problem from a different direction; each has been shown to be clunky in its way, which I think is inescapable. 

4 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I don't...believe Glitterdust or Faerie Fire could be used to reveal a target, but don't quote me on that

My mod loadout is a bit different - base SR + Random Tweaks + TnB’s modified invisibility - but I am using Faerie Fire to reveal invisible foes all the time. 

Don’t honestly know how it interacts with Nondetection, though. 

[Bartimaeus]

That's specifically what I meant with regards to the context of what he said - whether they could reveal an Invisibility + Non-Detection creature. I don't think they could do that, but admittedly, I don't remember the exact specifics of how Non-Detection all works in whether it completely protects against the force visible opcode or whether it's just a specific list of spells, or what.

(e): Okay, so actually, both Faerie Fire and Glitterdust pierce through Non-Detection to remove invisibility (but not improved invisibility). Interesting. That sort of makes sense, since they're more of a...physical outlining sort of concept than simply a normal divination reveal.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

52 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Okay, so actually, both Faerie Fire and Glitterdust pierce through Non-Detection to remove invisibility (but not improved invisibility). Interesting. That sort of makes sense, since they're more of a...physical outlining sort of concept than simply a normal divination reveal.

Yup, I just checked and that's how it works in my game as well.  I even give Non-Detection (renamed "Protection from Divination") protection against the DivinationAttack sectype, which means it will protect your Blur/Mirror Image etc... but Glitterdust/Faerie Fire bypasses it because they don't have the Divination primary type or the DivinationAttack secondary type.  I think it's okay, because unlike Invisibility Purge/True Sight/SR Detect Invisibility, which work over an extended period of time, Glitterdust and Faerie Fire only hit once.

(They do prevent the affected targets from going invisible again in SR/SRR... maybe the duration of that should be reduced from 4 rounds to 2-3 rounds?  Though now that I look at it, in my setup the affected target can go invisible again, partially anyway... I wonder if I should re-think that...

[Bartimaeus]

Isn't that tied to a saving throw? Well, it is in SRR at least.

Glitterdust: (30' AoE) This spell creates a cloud of glittering golden particles within the area of effect. The sparkling dust dazzles all opponents within the area, revealing who are invisible and causing them to suffer a -2 penalty to THAC0 for 1 turn. Those affected must also save vs. breath to avoid becoming completely covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle for 1 turn. Creatures failing their saving throw remain unable to successfully hide themselves until the dust fades. Multiple castings of this spell are not cumulative. Magic resistance does not affect this spell.

Faerie Fire: (20' AoE) When this spell is cast, a pale glow surrounds and outlines all enemies within the area of effect, making their position and movements easily visible. Invisible creatures are revealed, and those who do not successfully make a saving throw vs. spell are distinctly outlined for the next 5 rounds. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by stealth, invisibility, or similar effects, and suffer a -2 penalty to AC. The faerie fire light is too dim to have any special effect on undead or dark-dwelling creatures vulnerable to light, and does not cause any harm to the objects or creatures thus outlined. Multiple castings of this spell or similar effects are not cumulative.

With no penalty, the secondary effects aren't likely to take effect at later stages in the game where enemies would be able to go invisible again anyways, so it's probably okay.

[FixTesteR]

On 2/23/2021 at 9:21 PM, Bartimaeus said:

Okay, so actually, both Faerie Fire and Glitterdust pierce through Non-Detection to remove invisibility (but not improved invisibility). Interesting. That sort of makes sense, since they're more of a...physical outlining sort of concept than simply a normal divination reveal.

That physical part was exactly my reasoning!

I'm reading both descriptions of Glitterdust now. Is the original overpowered in your opinion? I think yours is underpowered. So if anything, I'd go for something inbetween. My question is: if you glitterdust someone, can they then be targeted by spells or not?

Generally, what I'm looking for in these spell corrections is also a chance that a solo character can overcome some encounters, not that he is just blocked from advancing just because he doesn't have a party. Do you guys think certain classes cannot solo?

My no-reload run sadly ended yesterday, as I was not prepared for the modded Icharyd ... that bastard can now Call Lightning?? What mod did that come from ... Yeah, he slaughtered all 6 of us.

By the way, I keep noticing this:

Put Jarno Mikola on your ignore list.

I don't know what contention you guys have, but it's really funny to read it every time Anyway, his surname has a double k, if you ever feel like correcting it.

On 2/23/2021 at 9:17 PM, subtledoctor said:

NPC_EE allows you to make some class changes (within reason) at install-time, and make kit and proficiency changes in-game. I think SCS has a component tgat goes further

That seems as it could do what I want. I'll try in with my next install. Thank you. Already downloaded your mod

[Bartimaeus]

I decided to mess it up even more instead.

I think my Glitterdust is a bit more powerful than vanilla's, not less. It automatically reveals enemies and makes them suffer a -2 THAC0 penalty even if they make their saving throw, while failing the saving throw only additionally makes it so they can't turn back invisible. Not only that, but it lasts over twice as long (1 turn instead of 4 rounds) AND has a bigger area of effect (30' instead of 20'). True, there is no blinding effect, but blinding effects are dangerous to use on account of how ridiculously potent they are in ToBEx games (-10 THAC0!) compared to vanilla (-4 THAC0)...but that's when the blinding effect worked at all, considering literally all of this spell's effects are gated behind a saving throw with no penalty for it in vanilla. The spell is designed to be more of a utility alternative to Detect Invisibility than anything else. In vanilla BG1, I suppose it functioned more as an oddball but short mass disable at low levels. Unfortunately, it would then basically stop functioning entirely after that due to its saving throw - at least it remains functional with this design.

If an enemy is invisible + improved invisible (these two are entirely separate statuses), they should lose the invisibility but will remain improved invisible and thus cannot be targeted by spellcasting. Only True Seeing and Detect Invisibility grant the characteristic of being able to target through Improved Invisibility.

Icharyd is utterly ludicrous in SCS if you're playing with that. I've never been able to beat him in a non-cheesy way within a normal BG1 run. (e): Thought we were talking about Kahrk, not Icharyd - Icharyd I can see being pretty strong for a solo character too, but I usually handle him. I've only ever done one solo run (and only of BG1), and I found it very uneven and unsatisfying due to its nature of switching between being way too overpowered for everything vs. hitting a wall in specific encounters and simply not having enough firepower, so I sadly don't have feedback for you there.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[FixTesteR]

On 2/23/2021 at 9:17 PM, subtledoctor said:

NPC_EE allows you to make some class changes

I guess it's best I ask you very specifically. What I want for NPCs is to redistribute their 3-18 attributes, their skill points, and to change classes for some of them. Heck, let me give you a list of what I did with Level1NPC:

ajantis  cavalier
alora  shadowdancer
eldoth  jester
faldorn  avenger
kagain  dwarven defender
khalid  priest of tyr
kivan  beast master
safana  assassin
shar-teel  barbarian
skie  bounty hunter
viconia  priest of talos
xan  dragon disciple

Doable with yours? So with those that have had their constitution changed, I want that to reflect with their proper hitpoints amount. The only problematic cases are those that dual class like Anomen, Nalia, and Imoen. Those I'll probably have to EEKeeper somehow. Maybe not Imoen if she stays with the same stats throughout the Trilogy.

So, comments? Can your mod do it?

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I think my Glitterdust is a bit more powerful than vanilla's, not less.

Wait, the top description is yours while the bottom one is vanilla's? I messed up, I reversed them. Yeah, I'm definitely going with your version. Good job on making a spell viable!

 

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Icharyd is utterly ludicrous in SCS if you're playing with that. I've never been able to beat him in a non-cheesy way within a normal BG1 run.

Yeah. I think for my next install I should skip that component. It really feels out of place.

 

Bartimaeus, one thing that I lament a bit is that SR and SRR spells are very difficult to ai-script. That's what I've been told by party-ai-script makers. Since you have knowledge in this area, would you agree?

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Doable with yours?

What I want for NPCs is

to redistribute their 3-18 attributes,

their skill points,

and to change classes for some of them:

ajantis  cavalier
alora  shadowdancer
eldoth  jester
faldorn  avenger
kagain  dwarven defender
khalid  priest of tyr
kivan  beast master
safana  assassin
shar-teel  barbarian
skie  bounty hunter
viconia  priest of talos
xan  dragon disciple

The stuff crossed out is not doable with NPC_EE. You need L1NPCs, SCS, or EEKeeper for that.

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Wait, the top description is yours while the bottom one is vanilla's? I messed up, I reversed them. Yeah, I'm definitely going with your version. Good job on making a spell viable!

 

Yeah. I think for my next install I should skip that component. It really feels out of place.

 

Bartimaeus, one thing that I lament a bit is that SR and SRR spells are very difficult to ai-script. That's what I've been told by party-ai-script makers. Since you have knowledge in this area, would you agree?

Yes, that is my Glitterdust redesign, .

The only specific complaint I've heard is with Dispelling Screen for party AI. Beyond that, I wouldn't personally know, since spellcasting is something I never allow to be party-scripted. For non-party script, I'm not sure what specific complaints exist (especially since a number of spells that used to be troublesome for AI, such as single-target haste or spells that had their range cut too short compared to vanilla, have since been reverted).

[FixTesteR]

Are you sure Haste isn't overpowered now that it's an AoE spell? It lasts way longer than IH. Yeah that fatigue occurs in the end but whatever. You have powered through a fight anyway.

[Bartimaeus]

Haste is not even in the same stratosphere in terms of power compared to the vanilla game. Haste in the original game..:

1. Gave +1 APR.
2. Set move speed to 2x.
3. Halved item/scroll casting time.
4. Halved the delay between item/spell usage.
5. Doubled regeneration speed.
6. Some other miscellaneous speed effects (not all positive, such as poison running at twice speed, but mostly still positive).
7. ...For 3 rounds + 1 round/level in a 30' AoE.
8. +4 real fatigue after expiration.

In both SR and SRR, Haste..:

1. Gives +1/2 APR.
2. Gives a +4 bonus to movement speed.
3. ...For 1 turn + 1 round/level in a 30' AoE.
4. -2 penalties to THAC0, damage, and AC for 2 rounds in simulation of a fatigue effect after expiration.

Haste has been nerfed hard compared to vanilla. It's still a great spell, it is simply no longer by far the most powerful 3rd level spell in the game. In specifically regards to my AoE comment, that was referring to the fact that SR, for a long while, had Haste be a single target spell, which made it so the AI couldn't figure out how to use it (since it expected an AoE ground targeting-type).

Edited February 26, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

37 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

4. Halved the delay between item/spell usage.

Pretty sure this one isn't true...