Some Concerns About V4

[noah.linden1]

It seems to me that Spell Revisions is now mostly about nerfing offensive spells to death rather than actually balancing the spell system.  Most of the offensive spells, and especially the new offensive spells, are quite underpowered.  For example, Icelance is utterly pathetic compared to Fireball, Flame Arrow is useless unless you're only battling one enemy, and Haste barely does anything except impose significant penalties when it wears off (yes, granting a total of maybe eight extra attacks to one character, a few of which will likely miss, over the course of two minutes, coupled with significant penalties when the spell wears off is a waste of a 3rd level spell slot).  And there's no way I'd ever cast Mestil's Acid Sheath, because it's about as damaging as Fireball but requires you to be hit in melee combat to do anything at all.  I also get the feeling that most offensive spells will be continually nerfed in each new iteration of this mod until there's almost no reason to ever use them, because the creators of this mod have begun to believe that spellcasters should be pigeonholed into the role of buffer/debuffer.

Pigeonholing spellcasters like this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are a number of RPGs that do exactly that.  However, because Spell Revisions is no longer about balancing the spell system, the readme should be changed to reflect this fact.

Edited January 5, 2019 by noah.linden1

[Bartimaeus]

1. In non-revised SR, Icelance, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Vitriolic Sphere are definitely underdeveloped. I have suggested revisions to them that are present in SRR.

2. Haste's fatigue effect lasts for 3 rounds. The minimum caster level to cast this spell is 5, and its duration is 1 turn + 1 round/level - in other words, at minimum level, it lasts 15 rounds. 15 rounds of up to six characters and possibly summonable creatures having significantly higher movement speed and an extra half attack per round...in exchange for 3 rounds of being suffering -2 penalties to THAC0, damage, and AC at the end of it. Are you actually suggesting that Haste is a bad value proposition? Interesting analysis.

3. Flame Arrow in vanilla did 1D6 piercing + 4D6 fire for every 5 levels of the spellcaster, no saving throw. In SR, it does 1D6 piercing + 1D6 fire for every 2 levels of the spellcaster, no saving throw. In other words, at tenth level, vanilla did 2D6 piercing + 8D6 fire,  while SR does 5D6 piercing + 5D6 fire. The real problem, of course, is the random targeting: you can't put these babies in sequencers and immediately and completely overwhelm one enemy in an encounter. However, it goes both ways if you're playing with SCS - enemy spellcasters triggering multiple vanilla flame arrows is absurd, too, and I'm very glad it's random because I would have had many very cheap-feeling instant deaths otherwise. Up until fairly recently, it actually used to be 1D6 piercing + 2D6 fire per arrow, if I recall correctly. Perhaps too strong of a nerf, but the original way was clearly too strong, too. Perhaps something more like 1D6 + 3 piercing (simulating a +3 enchantment level of the arrow) + 1D6 fire per 3 levels up to level 15 would be better...

Edited January 5, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[noah.linden1]

In the version I downloaded, Haste is a single-target spell.  Did I download the wrong version?  Because I just downloaded the most recent version...

Also, in the version I downloaded, Improved Haste only gives +1 attack to 1 creature, not your whole party.

Edited January 5, 2019 by noah.linden1

[Bartimaeus]

Yeah, you're on an old version. Haste is not single target anymore. Try this: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/29777-sr-v4-beta-16/

(e): Although it doesn't look like Haste's description got updated when it was updated, both Haste and Improved Haste are indeed AoEs again. Install SRR instead if you want a correct description, 

(e): Dear lord, somebody disable these new emoticons!

Edited January 5, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[n-ghost]

16 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

1. In non-revised SR, Icelance, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Vitriolic Sphere are definitely underdeveloped. I have suggested revisions to them that are present in SRR.

2. Haste's fatigue effect lasts for 3 rounds. The minimum caster level to cast this spell is 5, and its duration is 1 turn + 1 round/level - in other words, at minimum level, it lasts 15 rounds. 15 rounds of up to six characters and possibly summonable creatures having significantly higher movement speed and an extra half attack per round...in exchange for 3 rounds of being suffering -2 penalties to THAC0, damage, and AC at the end of it. Are you actually suggesting that Haste is a bad value proposition? Interesting analysis.

3. Flame Arrow in vanilla did 1D6 piercing + 4D6 fire for every 5 levels of the spellcaster, no saving throw. In SR, it does 1D6 piercing + 1D6 fire for every 2 levels of the spellcaster, no saving throw. In other words, at tenth level, vanilla did 2D6 piercing + 8D6 fire,  while SR does 5D6 piercing + 5D6 fire. The real problem, of course, is the random targeting: you can't put these babies in sequencers and immediately and completely overwhelm one enemy in an encounter. However, it goes both ways if you're playing with SCS - enemy spellcasters triggering multiple vanilla flame arrows is absurd, too, and I'm very glad it's random because I would have had many very cheap-feeling instant deaths otherwise. Up until fairly recently, it actually used to be 1D6 piercing + 2D6 fire per arrow, if I recall correctly. Perhaps too strong of a nerf, but the original way was clearly too strong, too. Perhaps something more like 1D6 + 3 piercing (simulating a +3 enchantment level of the arrow) + 1D6 fire per 3 levels up to level 15 would be better...

While we're at it, would you someday consider collaborating with kreso to wrap this thing up for good? I.e., release a final, stable and only™ SR v4?

If not, that's fine, just trying to figure out what ultimately happens to this project after all these years.

Edited January 6, 2019 by n-ghost

[Bartimaeus]

We kind of have to wait for Kreso to check in - he hasn't been on since before the forums died, and he didn't provide a link to his "final" version. So...that's kind of that.

From the things he listed in his thread, these are now (or already were) in SRR:

• Ice Storm (both mage and druid versions) now slow movement by 20%, not 50. Spell was OP before.
• Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades now can work together
• Globe of Blades does 2d8 slashing damage per round, no save
• Haste now only gives +4 to movement speed (was +6 before)
• Protection from Missiles is now caster-only.
• Imp.Haste is now +4 to movement speed
• Lastly, cloud-based spells like cloudkill and stationary AoE like Web will no longer deplete deflection charges or be blocked by them. 

I also just added corrected/better explanations of how Detect Invisibility, Invisibility Purging, and True Seeing handle improved invisibility detection (as well as listed the exact spells True Seeing should dispel). I think everything else will probably wait until he comes back. As for my personal changes, I imagine most of them will remain separate except for the things Kreso personally likes - that's just up to him.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Mike1072
moved post to this topic

[DreamSlaveOne]

Yeah, I was really sad when Demi disappeared. While SR and IR in really good hands, KR fate not as glorious. Or maybe I'm just a little mad that many spell icons that Demi requested will not be implemented

[Grammarsalad]

9 hours ago, DreamSlaveOne said:

Yeah, I was really sad when Demi disappeared. While SR and IR in really good hands, KR fate not as glorious. Or maybe I'm just a little mad that many spell icons that Demi requested will not be implemented

Do you still have those??? I could certainly use a few icons... Just sayin'

[DreamSlaveOne]

Let me see...

This is a list of spells what I have in my Dropbox folder. Most have game ready files iirc. If something specific is need feel free to DM me.

OT: I hope that absolute balance is not the goal of SR/IR. While it is good when particular outliers brought in line with other spell it can lead to a sterile system. Not everything should be equal and sometimes some spell dealing 3 damage instead of 2 is not that exciting as it seems. Revision family brings variety of choices without homogenization. Let if stay that way.

My personal concern may look like reanimated dead horse. It would be great if there was clear documentation on ALL changes that SR makes. Or magic protections system explained in detail at least. Together with in game spell descriptions, hopefully.

[Bartimaeus]

Agreed: absolute balance is a silly and kind of pointless venture, since, as you said, it just makes things kind of boring and predictable. I'm also not necessarily in favor of removing every kind of exploitable behavior - some of the worst, sure, but if people want to make use of particularly powerful combos, you shouldn't start nerfing stuff to the point where it's *only* useful as a combo rather than in of itself. There's a "balance" to keep, but it's not necessarily perfect balance. Some spells are considered classics in D&D for a reason, after all.

[noah.linden1]

Icelance has a maximum damage of 5d6, and only deals damage to one target.  Fireball, also a 3rd level spell, deals a maximum of 10d6 damage to (potentially) many targets.  I'd seriously suggest making Icelance deal as much damage as Fireball to compensate.  Then there would actually be a reason to use Icelance.

As for Mestil's Acid Sheath, because it's a 5th level spell, and because it requires your character to be hit in melee combat (something you don't want to have happen to your characters to begin with) to do anything at all, I'd literally suggest doubling the damage, at the very least. 

Vitriolic Sphere isn't as underpowered as Mestil's Acid Sheath, but boosting the damage by maybe 75% would put it on par with Cone of Cold, given its tiny area of effect.

And then we have Waves of Fatigue, which is the opposite of a Bless spell, but is 5th level, doesn't last nearly as long, and stacks.  Definitely the most underpowered spell I've seen to date, but one that can be abused via stacking if you're determined enough.  How about making it impose a -2 Luck penalty but making it non-stackable?  That way, it's not incredibly underpowered and can't be abused through stacking.

That said, I love a lot of the revisions to the spell system.  Making Improved Haste an improved version of Haste (rather than a Greater Whirlwind Attack for 20 rounds for dual-wielders) and affect the whole party gives it a ton of utility while allowing multiclassed fighter/mages a chance to shine with Greater Whirlwind Attack (and thereby deal more damage than dual-classed Fighter--->Mages in short bursts).  Making 10th level spells into innate abilities was genius, and helped achieve more class balance.  So don't take my criticisms the wrong way.

Edited January 8, 2019 by noah.linden1

[Bartimaeus]

In SRR, Icelance scales to level and does equal parts piercing and cold damage (maximum of 5D6 for both, aka 10D6). Vitriolic Sphere was redesigned entirely to be more like IWD's, and does 1D4 per caster level on initial blast with no saving throw granted, and then continues to deal 2 less dice of damage each round after that until/unless they save for half damage for the given round (e.g. 10D4 on the initial round, 8D4 on the second, 6D4 on the third - if they save vs. breath at a -2 saving throw, the spell ends and the current round just deals half of its damage). Mestil's Acid Sheath scales to level (although I admit that I still think it's a little underpowered and would prefer...SOMEthing different for it), while I have a complete temporary redesign for Waves of Fatigue that doesn't involve stacking. Kreso has been pretty adamant about Waves of Fatigue staying the way it is, although I personally think it's poor design to need to cast a spell multiple times for it to have any real effectiveness against enemies (while it can similarly be of little use against the party if they're freshly rested...and can be absolutely crippling if they're not - just makes it too hard to balance, which is why the duration is so short, which makes it even worse in most circumstances if you can only cast it once).

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[noah.linden1]

Bart, where can I get this revised version?  Please give me the link. 

[Bartimaeus]

 

[noah.linden1]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said: