Version confusion

[urdjur]

Hi! I've been away from these forums for quite some time but I'm now contemplating a new playthrough, using SR and SCS as my main mods. I'm confused. The last days I've tried to get a grip on what the latest version of SR is and what is it compatible with, but I'm not sure I've gotten there. To sum up the situation as I understand it:

1) demivrgvs has left the forums before releasing SRv4. The latest official version of his work is SRv3.something and it has a readme that has consistent updated spell descriptions for its actual game effects.

2) kreso resumed work on SRv4 but is now also MIA before releasing anything final. I can't find a readme that details what changes, at long last, the last version (is it 4.16?) applies to the spells as compared to v3 or vanilla. 

3) There now also seems to be a revised SR that is provided by Bartimaeus - I suppose it is in response to kreso being MIA but also seems to be developed in parallell to 4.15+? I also lack a readme here - the thread on it has some entries on some arcane spells and summons, but I don't think it's a comprehensive list of changes compared to vanilla or SRv3?

4) There is also the issue of a special SCS version also released by kreso (?) that is supposed to make better use of some version of SR (which one?) that I should maybe use?

5) Also there's the issue of compatibility with the base game. If I'm interested in BG2 and ToB, is Enhanced Edition still my best bet?

What I would like is an as bug free, stable and artificially intelligent/well-balanced playthrough as possible, and I'm at a loss which version combination of which sub-version(s) of SR and SCS that can provide that for me. What would you recommend I try?

I would also very much appreciate a complete documentation/readme of what changes to spells that SR now applies, so that I can plan my party. For example, is Animate Dead an evil-only spell now? Are mage HLAs innate abilities? How does the current SR/SCS spell battle system work with spell immunity, different deflection styles, area based spell protection removals etc?

[Bartimaeus]

V4b16 was more developed to fix some of the worst problems of b15 that I and others had found over the past couple of years. For simplicity's sake, that's probably the best thing to go with, even though it still has some problems and we're awaiting SR V4 Final.

I think the latest version of SCS, the one that's currently in beta, handles SR compatibility more natively, and thus there is no need for Kreso's Revised SCS, right @DavidW ?

Spell Immunity no longer exists for players in SR V4, though they still do for enemies in non-SRR games (something that I rather disliked and thus provided the option to disable). If you want a complete list of changes, you're best off looking at the "detailed list of changes", although it is not perfectly exhaustive at this point: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/22694-sr-v4-detailed-list-of-changes-ongoing-update/

 

[urdjur]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

V4b16 was more developed to fix some of the worst problems of b15 that I and others had found over the past couple of years. For simplicity's sake, that's probably the best thing to go with, even though it still has some problems and we're awaiting SR V4 Final.

I think the latest version of SCS, the one that's currently in beta, handles SR compatibility more natively, and thus there is no need for Kreso's Revised SCS, right @DavidW ?

Spell Immunity no longer exists for players in SR V4, though they still do for enemies in non-SRR games (something that I rather disliked and thus provided the option to disable). If you want a complete list of changes, you're best off looking at the "detailed list of changes", although it is not perfectly exhaustive at this point: https://www.gibberlings3.net/forums/topic/22694-sr-v4-detailed-list-of-changes-ongoing-update/

 

Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah, enemy spell casters relying on a spell that players no longer have access to sounds terrible to me too, so I guess I would prefer SRR for that reason alone. What was the intent with SRR and is there any real hope in waiting for a SR V4 Final? Is there anything crucial that's left out of your SRR that is beyond for you to fix?

[DavidW]

SCS v32 has fairly substantial native support for SR (I think including conforming to its Spell Immunity rules), though it isn't yet at the "official release" stage so use at own risk.

I can't comment on "revised SCS" - I had nothing to do with it (beyond, obviously, writing the underlying mod!) and don't provide support for it.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, urdjur said:

Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah, enemy spell casters relying on a spell that players no longer have access to sounds terrible to me too, so I guess I would prefer SRR for that reason alone. What was the intent with SRR and is there any real hope in waiting for a SR V4 Final? Is there anything crucial that's left out of your SRR that is beyond for you to fix?

SRR was originally made as my own personal mod to fix many of the bugs and oversights of SRb15 (well, actually, it started before Kreso entered the picture, but I've kept updating it along side his very valuable work). Besides bug fixing, there were some spells that I thought were simply inexplicably bad (e.g. Icelance, Symbol of Pain, Mestil's Acid Sheath) that I wanted to make legitimate options, some spells that were just straight up missing (e.g. Gate and Summon Nishruu), spells that I didn't think scaled properly to level (Cure/Regenerate series, Polymorph Other), and plenty of spells that I thought just needed a small buff or small nerf. Also wanted to fix scroll distribution, provide better support for Item Revisions, and fix a whole lot of text inconsistencies and oversights (of which there were...a lot). In other words, I think of SRR as being a general fixer-upper with my own personal flare.

As for what's missing from SR V4 Final, there were some changes that I wanted to see in action before integrating them necessarily while other stuff is new stuff he was coming up with. They can probably be summarized as such:

Brand new stuff:
1. Greater Heroism replacing Stone to Flesh.
2. EE patching stuff he listed (something to do with damage spam being eliminated?).
3. Major Prismatic Mantle re-design.
4. Major Flesh to Stone re-design.

Changes:

1. Insects fear effect to berserk.
2. Mind Blank minor re-design.
3. Chaotic Commands minor re-design.

I think, besides that, everything else he listed I've already duplicated and integrated. The one other thing besides that was something Subtledoctor, Mad Mate, and I think one other person were working on before the forums died for a month, in regards to changing the installation structure of the mod to increase compatibility and make the mod more flexible and foolproof (and coincidentally eliminate a Sequencer/Contingency bug caused by Dispelling Screen that happens in the EEs).

Edited January 8, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[urdjur]

OK, the picture is getting clearer from reading your replies, and all the first page threads on the SR and SCS subforums

If I understand correctly, SRR modifies the installation of any SR version to apply your changes? But was that only for v4b15, or is there still some point to using SRR if running v4b16? Is anything from SRR left out in v4b16, or will SRR 1.07 actually risk overwriting something that's even more updated in b16 compared to b15?

The 4+3 remaining changes for a "final" v4 don't seem very important to me. I still find it hard to read up on what spells actually do now. For example, it seems like Fire Shield protects from Insect Spells only as of v4b16, even though this change has been discussed for years. I still haven't found out if Animate Dead suite of spells is only for evil casters nowadays  

Also, the spell system. Wow. An updated flow chart would really help. If I understand the biggest change correctly though, it's that nothing can really prevent targeting as such anymore as long as you have revealing magic like See Invisibility, True Seeing etc. There is no SI:Divination and Non-detection still doesn't stop you seeing invisible and being able to target as normal. Basically, every spell caster is a demon now. Invisibility as a foil to targeting as such is pretty much moot, whereas it used to be the Stoneskin/PfMW against nasty magic. Is there anything that stops Maze/Imprisonment now? I gather Mind Blank blocks power words, at least. 

I'm also wondering about Dispel Screen (or was it Dispel Shield?). Will it always absorb and get cancelled by any Dispel Magic effect, even if it would have been ineffective? For example, Carsomyr's level 15 dispel ability against a CL30 Lich, will it cancel the liches Spell Deflection so that the next time when Keldorn uses his own CL40 Dispel, all combat protections will be removed so that the lich can now be hacked to pieces? Also, will an area dispel cancel multiple spell deflections, or must it be targeted?

Also what about Pierce Magic/Shield (I forget the name - the one that is like Breach+)? If you have a wizard with: Dispel Shield + Spell Deflection + Stoneskin, would it ignore the Dispel Shield but not dispel it, remove the Spell Deflection and then finally remove all combat protections?

[Bartimaeus]

SRR is based off of b16 (with some of the proposed V4 Final changes as well), but works just fine with b15 as well.

Animate Dead: Usable by all all priests (it's like the one mid-level cleric summoning spell - would be pretty broken if it was missing for good clerics).

Insect Spells and Fire Shield: It was supposed to already be like this, but a bug I identified a long while back prevented it from working as intended, which is why it's mentioned as now actually being implemented for b16 (and was already implemented for SRR).

Maze/Imprisonment: I think Subtledoctor has floated the idea of making Freedom also a buff that creates an area-wide anti-Imprisonment/Maze effect or something like that, but without feedback from others, nothing happened (ALSO, Freedom is a level 9 spell, which makes it an ineffective way of protecting against Imprisonment since you don't have access to it for a long time). I personally kind of hate Imprisonment, so I'm in favor of allowing some way to resist it (-6 saving throw?, Freedom or Mind Blank protecting against it, I don't know - just something), but it's not currently there.

Improved Invisibility: I could be wrong, but I THINK Non-Detection protects against the anti-invisibility part of spells like True Seeing, but what it does not do is protect against the anti-improved invisibility part of spells like True Seeing (and keep in mind that it's only effective for the caster using the anti-invisibility buff in cases like that). In other words, I believe you can use Non-Detection to avoid outright detection, but once you choose to reveal yourself, you're more vulnerable to casters using stuff like True Seeing.

Spell Shield and Dispelling Screen: Spell Shield protects a single usage of anti-magic attacks like Secret Word and Ruby Ray of Reversal (and only for the caster), while Dispelling Screen is an AoE buff that applies to the entire party that prevents one Dispel?Remove Magic or one Breach. Spell protection spells like Spell Deflection are not affected by Dispel/Remove Magic, period, no matter what (at the end of every Spell Deflection-like spell reads this message: "This spell will not protect the caster from a dispel magic, but it will not be affected by a dispel magic, either."), but yes, Carsomyr would dispel Dispelling Screen and make it so that subsequent Dispel Magics have the chance of being effective. As for Pierce Shield that dispels one spell protection and also breaches combat protections, I could be wrong and somebody could correct me if I am, but I think the breaching part of the spell would not occur if protected by Spell Shield.

Other Spells: You're probably best just looking at the arcane.tra and divine.tra files in spell_rev/languages/english (the mod folder that you download and install from) with a text editor if you want to read every detail of every spell, .

Edited January 9, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[Relay]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

I could be wrong, but I THINK Non-Detection protects against the anti-invisibility part of spells like True Seeing, but what it does not do is protect against the anti-improved invisibility part of spells like True Seeing

The main point of Non-Detection is now to protect your Mirror Image/Blur/Improved invisibility from being dispelled by True seeing or detect illusion. They will still be able to target you but you will keep the images and AC bonuses to help vs being hit.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Relay

[subtledoctor]

On 1/8/2019 at 10:09 AM, urdjur said:

Yeah, enemy spell casters relying on a spell that players no longer have access to sounds terrible to me too, 

Again, for the nth time: this is not the design intent or execution of SR. Demi thought that Spell Immunity is a stupid spell that can tend to make gameplay rote and facile, instead of interesting and tactical. (And many, many people agreed - Demi always solicited WAY more feedback from players than most modders do.) So he shifted some of the effects of different Spell Immunities to different spells - Nondetection is SI:Diviniation, Mind Blank is SI:Enchantment, ProEnergy is SI:Evocation, etc. 

The question then becomes what to do about SCS AI. The ptoblems are twofold: 1) changing all the AI scripts to use these new spells instead if the old SI spells would be a crap-ton of work, and would result in... almost exactly the same behavior. And 2) nobody here has the authority or ability to edit SCS in such a way anyway. 

The solution is simple: just keep the old spells in the AI lists. This does NOT mean the AI can do things the player cannot. Both the AI and the player can cast [Nondetection/SI:Div]; both can cast [Mind Blank/SI:Ench]; etc. The only differences might be in the strings that appear in the combat log - merely cosmetic and can be fixed anyway - and possibly in an accounting of how many spells can be used from each level, but that's not noticeable unless you and the AI cast all your spells in a battle, which is something I've never, ever seen in BG2. 

So to recap: 1) SI is removed, 2) but you can still use some specific SI-style effects, 3) and so can AI casters when properly scripted (such as with SCS). 

As for Nondetection: in the vanilla game, Imp. Invis. + SI:Div is one of those instances where it makes gameplay rote and facile. SR doesn't change Nondection/SI:Div here, rather, the changes are to See Invisible/True Sight. It adds the "detect invisible by script" opcode to those spells, which allows spell targeting regardless of whether the enemy is invisible or not, and which a lot of AI opponents already use anyway. This just makes True Sight the equal of, e.g., fiends' invisibility detection. Which seems quite fair to me. If you want to avoid being targeted by spells then you have Spell Deflection/Spell Trap/Spell Shield for that purpose. 

(EDIT - what the heck is going on with the formatting here?)

Edited January 17, 2019 by Mike1072
fixed formatting (it was due to copy/paste preserving background colour and font size)

[DavidW]

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Demi thought that Spell Immunity is a stupid spell that can tend to make gameplay rote and facile, instead of interesting and tactical. (And many, many people agreed - Demi always solicited WAY more feedback from players than most modders do.) So he shifted some of the effects of different Spell Immunities to different spells - Nondetection is SI:Diviniation, Mind Blank is SI:Enchantment, ProEnergy is SI:Evocation, etc. 

That doesn't really make sense. If the problem with Spell Immunity is that it spoils gameplay, that can't be fixed by renaming it. 

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

nobody here has the authority or ability to edit SCS in such a way anyway

(Raises hand.)

I'm not really a fan of SR's changes to the spell-combat system, but I'm pretty sure I fully support them anyway, as of v32.

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

As for Nondetection: in the vanilla game, Imp. Invis. + SI:Div is one of those instances where it makes gameplay rote and facile.

This I agree with: it lacks any really effective counter; combined with SI:Abj (that's the standard Spell Trigger in Tactics) it's basically unbreakable without very narrow and specific strategies. (Hence SCS's change of letting anti-magic penetrate II, which is probably the biggest change I make to the vanilla spell system.)

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

SR doesn't change Nondection/SI:Div here, rather, the changes are to See Invisible/True Sight. It adds the "detect invisible by script" opcode to those spells, which allows spell targeting regardless of whether the enemy is invisible or not

This, I concede, is clever. If I'd thought of it way back in 2006 I might have gone with it instead of my solution (at this stage, though, it would require too much retesting and rebalancing).

 

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

That doesn't really make sense. If the problem with Spell Immunity is that it spoils gameplay, that can't be fixed by renaming it.

Well, sure renaming things matters.  There are functional gameplay differences: SR's invisibility detection effectively nerfs SI:Div; and SI:Abj is changed to Dispelling Screen; and I think SI:Nec is priest-only in SR; and several of the others (SI:Conj, SI:Ill, etc.) are not available to the player at all.*  Insofar as there are no longer eight perfectly balances "protect me form an entire spell school" spells in the game, it is a nice thing to rename what is left and make the experience of using them more immersive and pleasant.

* I'm fairly sure that SCS scripts only use a few of the SI spells... maybe you can confirm which ones are used?  I think Demi was guided by SCS here, keeping and renaming the SI spells that SCS uses, and discarding the other ones.  If done right then it would result in greater, not lesser, parity between the player and AI enemies.

 

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

This [SR invisibility detection], I concede, is clever. If I'd thought of it way back in 2006 I might have gone with it instead of my solution (at this stage, though, it would require too much retesting and rebalancing).

It actually creates a bit of a weird situation, though, because "See Invisible" (opcode 93) lets you see and target enemies who are protected by 4th-level Improved Invisibility or 5th-level Shadow Door, but it does not let you see and target enemies protected by 2nd-level plain Invisibility.  Seems to me that latter should be weaker!

Tome & Blood addresses this by cannibalizing Sanctuary.  With it installed, See Invisible/True Sight let you see and target any invisible enemy, regardless whether their invisibility is 'normal' or 'improved,' and regardless whether they have committed an aggressive action and made themselves partially visible.  (It also eliminates that horrendous blobular Sanctuary overlay... coding that change has turned out to be finicky, though.)

[Relay]

On 1/17/2019 at 10:08 PM, subtledoctor said:

It actually creates a bit of a weird situation, though, because "See Invisible" (opcode 93) lets you see and target enemies who are protected by 4th-level Improved Invisibility or 5th-level Shadow Door, but it does not let you see and target enemies protected by 2nd-level plain Invisibility.  Seems to me that latter should be weaker!

My excitement for 2019 modding has gone up significantly this morning!

I know you're already aware of this but This new hotness is possible now. 

[subtledoctor]

Yeah it's quite cool... with the caveat that it is in very early stages and platform-limited, which means I can't even play around with it.  So for the invisibility stuff, I prefer to use my own proven, platform-independent solution.  Hopefully, in time, EEex will become the new ToBEx: modular, portable, and open for piecemeal use by any modder. 

[DavidW]

Though I think I’d be worried about relying on it (tempting though it looks!) as long as EE itself is under active development- most likely, any engine upgrade would break it.