Goodberry

[bob_veng]

3 is a nice number

[subtledoctor]

In a discussion of consisting of judgment and opinion, you are calling things "lame" and "wrong."  Which, hey, feel free.  But a) that actually doesn't make any sense, and b) it's kind of shitty.  My post 1) rightly dismissed such nonsense, and 2) tried to return focus to relevant aspects of the discussion - how the mod can make gameplay better.

Honestly on re-reading I don't see anything "hostile" there... unless you mean hostile to the devs.  If so yes, I have posted on many occasion that IE games require TONS of mouse clicks on generally small targets, moreso than most games, and can result in discomfort.  I don't think that's hostile so much as accepted truth, and it seems quite reasonable to discuss reducing the amount of clicking in a forum on modding the game...

(EDIT - that's @Bartimaeus. @bob_veng sure, 3 is fine if you're into that sort of thing but in this context I don't find that to be a particularly convincing argument...)

Edited April 23, 2019 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

Virtually nothing in this game comes in two like you are suggesting. Special "per day" abilities on items come in 1 or 3. Goodberry itself historically comes in 5. I would never pick 2 because it doesn't fit - 1, 3, or 5 would, and you already said that 1 removes an interesting mechanic of the spell in having splittable quantities, and 5 is too many because it splits the effects between too many uses. So...3 would seem to be the closest to what you want. Rule of three exists for a reason, after all. I thought this was obvious.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

That's fine and all, but you're just talking about abstract numbers.  My response to that, with all possible respect, is "who cares?" The game chose an arbitrary number (5), and making the spell into "create a healing potion" results in a fairly arbitrary number (1); yes, 3 is halfway between them but that fact is... arbitrary.  It's like saying the mean is always better than the median.  That's senseless; it of course depends on the context.

Scaling would be a bit difficult with 3.  I might scale it to level 9 instead of 18:

- Level 1: heal 3 hp

- Level 3: heal 4 hp

- Level 5: heal 5 hp

- Level 7: heal 6 hp

- Level 9: heal 7 hp

That's notably stronger at 1st level (but, to me, not a dealbreaker since it is less convenient than Cure Wounds).  I guess you could scale it to 10 hp per berry at level 15?  Then it's like getting 3 healing potions.  I'm still not sure I'd ever actually cast the spell, though...

[Bartimaeus]

"Who cares?" Me, . I didn't spend many, many hours cleaning up both IR's and SR's language files to be free from inconsistencies and vagueries because I didn't care. If you want to establish an order outside of that, be my guest...but this is SR within the Revisions series of mods, and I'm working within its rules where it has been overwhelmingly consistent to that and where I do not think a quantity of 2 fits. That is all.

SR's Cure Wound Spells all have a base heal of XD8 + X per level (where X equals spell level, e.g. Cure Moderate Wounds would be X = 2), maxing out at level 10, regardless of whether X is 1 or 4. So Cure Light Wounds would be 1D8 + 10 at level 10, for an average of 14.5 points of healing. Your Goodberries would be 21 points of healing per cast that does not require mid-combat spellcasting, and can be prepared in advance - however, it is split into three different uses. That's kind of the problem with instant healing here - you want Goodberries to be worth the cast, but you don't really want to have it outshine Cure Light Wounds for mid-combat healing, which is probably why a regeneration-based approach makes more sense (and possibly you actually meant this to be regeneration-based, in which case, those numbers make much more sense).

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

I actually think using them as healing potions is less convenient than casting CLW.  I was just playing and Minsc, with two goodberries in a quickslot, got Held.  Attackers started whaling on him, and Finch tried to keep healing him from behind, but those Goodberries?  Totally useless.  And as far as situations

Maybe healing is just the wrong tack.  Someone once suggested reducing fatigue, which would be interesting, but kind of weird, and very situationally useful (and mostly useless).  Regeneration seems pretty boring to me.

I think the problem is, trying to find a unique effect is hard.  Maybe something like, each berry gives the result of an Aid spell, and the number of berries is what scales?  Or maybe physical stat boosts - +1 STR/DEX/CON for a little while?  Magical berries that make you stronger and more hearty?

 

13 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

"Who cares?" Me, . I didn't spend many, many hours cleaning up both IR's and SR's language files to be free from inconsistencies and vagueries because I didn't care.

And yet, have those fixes been submitted to the mod?  (Sorry, pet peeve, I can't help the dig.)

Edited April 24, 2019 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

I found the vanilla Goodberries pretty helpful in my last run given SCS’s ease-of-use AI: druids auto-created them, party members auto-consumed them out of combat.

Now obviously you can’t have an SR spell that relies on scripting that way, but you could replicate most of the effect by having the spell create one goodberry that applies its effect once per round for five rounds.

[Jarno Mikkola]

19 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

but you're just talking about abstract numbers. ...

That's senseless; it of course depends on the context.

Scaling would be a bit difficult with 3.  I might scale it to level 9 instead of 18:

- Level 1: heal 3 hp

- Level 3: heal 4 hp

- Level 5: heal 5 hp

- Level 7: heal 6 hp

- Level 9: heal 7 hp

That's notably stronger at 1st level (but, to me, not a dealbreaker since it is less convenient than Cure Wounds).  I guess you could scale it to 10 hp per berry at level 15?  Then it's like getting 3 healing potions.  I'm still not sure I'd ever actually cast the spell, though...

1

Senseless indeed, numbers indeed... and context. The spell is a second level druid spell, so there's no Level 1 heal 3 hps.

My feelings about the spell is that it's definitely underpowered, in vanilla. The spells limit is also really limited in the amount it can stack in the inventory, 5 really. 999 would be better. Pond/lbs per berry, if you like.

To fix the underpowered issue 

1) it could neutralize/cure poison per use, as in just fix the poison to not damage the character. No damage reversal, other than the 1 hp it's in the current berry.

2) More berries. Perhaps 1 / level.

OR

3) Turn it's effect to SLOW regeneration 5 hps per berry. And gain 1 berry per 3 levels up to level 30... yes, up to 50 slow hitpoints in as meny rounds.

19 minutes ago, DavidW said:

Now obviously you can’t have an SR spell that relies on scripting that way, but you could replicate most of the effect by having the spell create one goodberry that applies its effect once per round for five rounds.

1

How come ? You could as well attach a script extension in case the mod is detected... No this can't be done !!! Or just use opcode98 and spell duration... Say par1=1 par2=10, spell duration = 50.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Jarno Mikkola

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

And yet, have those fixes been submitted to the mod?  (Sorry, pet peeve, I can't help the dig.)

Yes. A large portion of my text work was integrated into base IR a few years ago, in mid-2016, though I've continued to work on it since. It's the only thing I have directly submitted for integration in either IR or SR, so the sniping doesn't even really make sense. It's also why my name is listed under the "contributor" credits in IR, .

@DavidW Something to also keep in mind is that SR changed Goodberry to have a duration of only 8 hours (i.e. disappear on rest). Vanilla's last for forever, while SRR's last for a more moderate 24 hours, so the dynamics of creating them and easily using them are a little different for SR users.

@Jarno Mikkola Actually, Goodberry is a level 1 spell in SR.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

Good man.