Off topic discussion on Shadow Monsters (split from SCS v32: Spell Systems)

[Luke]

I think that shadows summoned by WIZARD_SHADES, WIZARD_DEMI_SHADOW_MONSTERS and WIZARD_SHADOW_MONSTERS need some boost. I mean, they currently have only the appearance of a shadow (via opcode #66 and #51), but not any other useful feature (combat-wise) => As a result, they're pretty weak. So, IMHO:

• They should be flagged as UNDEAD (RACE set either to SHADOW or SPECTRAL_UNDEAD, SEX set to ILLUSIONARY) => Consequently, they should receive RING95.itm.
• They should either receive a sort of WIZARD_BLUR (maybe +4 AC instead of +3 and no boost to saving throws) or a permanent Invisibility effect (this is probably too much since you won't be able to target them with spells.....)
• They should be immune to normal weapons.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Luke

[DavidW]

Out of scope. I’m not sufficiently interested in using these spells in SCS scripting to want to tweak them, and global balancing of the (BG or IWD) spell system isn’t in SCS’s remit.

[Luke]

10 hours ago, DavidW said:

I’m not sufficiently interested in using these spells in SCS scripting to want to tweak them...

I see. So this means that I can tweak them without worrying about breaking your AI, doesn't it?

Does the same hold for all summoning spells (i.e., you never use them)? Unfortunately, I don't have an SCS install to check myself.....

Edited April 26, 2019 by Luke

[DavidW]

11 hours ago, Luke said:

Does the same hold for all summoning spells

No.

[bob_veng]

On 4/25/2019 at 8:14 PM, Luke said:

I think that shadows summoned by WIZARD_SHADES, WIZARD_DEMI_SHADOW_MONSTERS and WIZARD_SHADOW_MONSTERS need some boost. I mean, they currently have only the appearance of a shadow (via opcode #66 and #51), but not any other useful feature (combat-wise) => As a result, they're pretty weak. So, IMHO:

• They should be flagged as UNDEAD (RACE set either to SHADOW or SPECTRAL_UNDEAD, SEX set to ILLUSIONARY) => Consequently, they should receive RING95.itm.
• They should either receive a sort of WIZARD_BLUR (maybe +4 AC instead of +3 and no boost to saving throws) or a permanent Invisibility effect (this is probably too much since you won't be able to target them with spells.....)
• They should be immune to normal weapons.

The spell school is illusion, so they can't be undead. for example, shadows from umar hills drain strength, and that especially doesn't seem proper for the illusion school. 

An example of a non-undead shadow would be the invisible stalker. spell school for summoning him is conjuration because he's a type of an air elemental. Invisible stalker is "permanently invisible" like you say, so that idea is already covered by another spell in the game. The IWD description says that the shadow monsters are also sorta elementals, but they come from the demiplane of shadow instead. that still seems like a conjuration spell.

The problem with these iwd spells is that the descriptions say that the shadow monsters are "illusionary"...in SoA, a precedent with illusionary (is that a word?) creatures is set with the circus tent quest - illusionary really should mean "not real"...

Seeing how non-illusion invisible stalker is more "illusionary" by virtue of being invisible than these iwd illusion school spells can ever hope for, i think there's a consistency problem with these spells... @DavidW you should probably do something. maybe make the monsters physically very weak (low HP and very low damage but high AC and thac0), but quite resistant to magic (or to magic energy mainly)

About pt. 2: let's take the lvl4 spell - if summoned creatures are about as strong as monsters from monster summoning ii and get blur, that's like getting multiple free lvl2 spells, which doesn't seem appropriate, and would just make shadow monsters a vastly better version of ms ii.

Edited April 26, 2019 by bob_veng

[subtledoctor]

Those spells adopt the 2E convention that the school of "Illusion/Phantasm" includes phantasmal spells that are, basically, real unless and until tou realize they aren't real. The werewolves in the circus tent quest are IMHO a great execution of this idea. Only later in 3E they made a whole plane of existence for shadows and made it fully distinct from phantasms. 

Back in 2E, the idea of shadow/ether stuff being used in illusion spells made some sense; illusions being after (in one sense) all a function of the interplay between light and shadow. I read "shadow monsters" as meaning something like "phantasmal monsters;" whereas the actual monster called a "shadow" is a species of spectral undead that is unrelated to illusion magic. To me, the use of the same word is merely incidental. 

The monsters from the Shadow Monster spells, therefore, should not be considered undead. I've discussed elsewhere how to make them cool; the IWD spells are... conceptually underwhelming. They should be better than the equivalent Monster Summoning spells when enemies believe them, but worse when the enemies disbelieve. So far I haven't come up with an ideal way to represent that in the Infinity Engine. 

Maybe they should be strong, and blurred or whatever; but their first attack should carry an opcode 248 effect that weakens them if the target makes a saving throw. Something like that...

(EDIT - I hate that cutting and pasting messes up text formatting on this new forum, and you can't fix it from a mobile browser...)

Edited April 27, 2019 by subtledoctor

[bob_veng]

yeah, your saving throw idea accords with the spells' pnp description (i've checked and all three spells are valid pnp spells in the "shadow conjuration" group)

pnp:

A wizard casting the shadow monsters spell uses material from the plane of Shadow to shape semi-real illusions of one or more monsters. ...

The actual hit point total for each monster is 20% of the hit point total it would normally have. ...

Those viewing the shadow monsters are allowed to disbelieve as per normal illusions, although there is a -2 penalty to the attempt. The shadow monsters perform as the real monsters with respect to Armor Class and attack forms. Those who believe in the shadow monsters suffer real damage from their attacks. Special attack forms such as petrification or level drain do not actually occur, but a subject who believes they are real will react appropriately.

Those who roll successful saving throws see the shadow monsters as transparent images superimposed on vague shadowy forms. These are Armor Class 10 and inflict only 20% of normal melee damage ...

 

 

[Luke]

@subtledoctor, @bob_veng

What you suggest is indeed very appropriate. So, what about this?

As soon as they're summoned, they're flagged as UNDEAD (and thus they receive RING95.itm, SEX set to ILLUSIONARY, RACE set to SHADOW/SPECTRAL_UNDEAD) => I mean, if you don't realize you're fighting against an illusion, then I think it makes sense for them to have the same immunities of Undead......

Then, in order to realize this

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

their first attack should carry an opcode 248 effect that weakens them if the target makes a saving throw

I was thinking of adding an OVERRIDE script, something like this one (I use IWDification, so the names of the various resources refer to that mod....)

Spoiler

// Let's consider the goblin as an example...

IF
	AttackedBy([EVILCUTOFF],DEFAULT)
	TookDamage()
THEN
	RESPONSE #50	// 50% chance of dispelling the illusion with each successful hit... This value will drop to 35% and 20% for Demi-Shadow Monsters and Shades respectively...
		DisplayStringHead(LastAttackerOf(Myself),~Illusion Dispelled~)
		CreateVisualEffectObject("SHAIR",Myself)
		ChangeAIScript("",OVERRIDE)		// Destroy this script
		ChangeGeneral(Myself,HUMANOID)
		ChangeRace(Myself,GOBLIN)
		DestroyItem("CDITRN40")  // Ring collecting some bonues due to being in shadow form + the Translucency opcode
		DestroyItem("CDISUMRN")  // Ring collecting opcodes #51 (Character tint solid)
		DestroyItem("RING95")  // Ring collecting all Undead immunities...
	RESPONSE #50	// This value will raise to 65% and 80% for Demi-Shadow Monsters and Shades respectively...
		Continue()
END

 

As you probably know, there are 3 different level of Translucency (i.e., CDITRN20.itm, CDITRN40.itm and CDITRN60.itm) => the first one for Shadow Monsters, the second one for Demi-Shadow Monsters and the last one for Shades. So:

• CDITRN20 could grant the blur overlay (opcode #65) + a boost of 2 to AC
• CDITRN40 could grant the blur overlay (opcode #65) + a boost of 4 to AC
• CDITRN60 could grant the blur overlay (opcode #65) + a boost of 4 to AC + immunity to Non-magical weapons

Edited April 27, 2019 by Luke

[bob_veng]

you should not be able to turn them, so they shouldn't be undead

they should be immune to death spell, because they are merely conjured matter rendered illusionary entities by the illusionist; they are not beings per se

however, they should be dispelled by detect illusion, or at least reverted to their raw non-illusionary form ("vague shadowy form")

[Luke]

1 hour ago, bob_veng said:

you should not be able to turn them...

Right. Well, you can easily add the following CRE effect => opcode #297 (Immunity to Turn Undead)

About Detect Illusion: since their SEX is set to ILLUSIONARY, they will be immediately destroyed by a sufficiently skilled thief (the same holds if True Sight is cast, and this makes sense...)

Edited April 27, 2019 by Luke

[bob_veng]

as undead, they would still be affected by something such as false dawn... undead hunters would have a bonus aganst them, they would be disrupted by appropriate weapons etc.

[Luke]

32 minutes ago, bob_veng said:

as undead, they would still be affected by something such as false dawn... undead hunters would have a bonus aganst them, they would be disrupted by appropriate weapons etc.

Right, I completely forgot about those....... If that's the case, then yes, they cannot be UNDEAD.... A new ITM is needed collecting some special immunities like Poison, Kill Target, Slay, Petrification, Hold creature, Paralyze, Charm creature and so forth.....

Edited April 27, 2019 by Luke

[DavidW]

15 hours ago, bob_veng said:

@DavidW you should probably do something.

No, I shouldn't, because as I have said previously, this is way out of scope for SCS. This SCS component implements the IWD spell system. I tweak that system a little bit to resolve inconsistencies between BG2 and IWD spell systems... but that doesn't apply here (e.g., Invisible Stalker and Monster Summoning II are in IWD already). And I tweak to sort out gaps or problems in the spell system that significantly get in the way of my ability to write appropriately-balanced AI... but that doesn't apply here either.

Moving this discussion elsewhere, since it's off-topic for this pinned announcement thread.

[bob_veng]

the state of affairs in IWD(EE) is not necessarily relevant for determining whether there may be inconsistencies in BG, under the current EE baseline standard

so while the existence of all these spells in iwd points to you that there isn't a consistency problem, it does not point so to me.

IWD is more flakey and rudimentary in it's application of rules and d&d concepts

Edited April 27, 2019 by bob_veng

[DavidW]

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that the IWD spell system is flagrantly inconsistent. That's still not my problem, nor SCS's. The Twisted Rune's strategy is also inconsistent; that doesn't mean SCS has some obligation to fix it!