Time of Icewind Dale Content's Availability in the BG Campaign [SoD and IWD spoilers]

[subtledoctor]

While I get that the base IWD1 campaign needs to be cordoned off for story reasons, and I think that's the right call... is the same true of HoW and TotLM? It seems kind of silly to sequester those inside the IWD1 campaign. Am I missing anything? Does HoW need to take place in the past?

tl;dr: for me the ideal structure of this would be something like:

- Install IWD2-in-EET? (Will install EEex)
	- Install IWD1-in-EET? (Executable patch not needed)
	- Where should Hjollder be?
	 -- 1. Kuldahar (no change)
	 -- 2. Baldur's Gate
	 -- 3. Athkatla
	- Where should Hobart be?
	 -- 1. Lonelywood (no change)
	 -- 2. Athkatla

...Something like that. 

[K4thos]

@subtledoctor, please re-read the post. Both HoW and TotLM takes place in present day, alongside IWD2. That implementation won't change.

Quote

tl;dr: for me the ideal structure of this would be something like:

On an unrelated note, this may sound weird but I'm not fan of modular mods at all. For example I'm overhelmed by SCS components - majority of times I have no idea which SCS options should I select. I'd prefer SCS options like this tbh

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by K4thos

[subtledoctor]

I agree that the ideal number of options can be counted on tbe fingers of one hand. TBH my main concern is is a simple binary split:

- install anything that needs the executable to be patched (IWD2)

- install anything that doesn't need EEex (all the IWD1 stuff)

Edited August 11, 2019 by subtledoctor

[bob_veng]

what about IWD1 as a prequel to BG1 ... you play as young gorion!

jk

Edited August 17, 2019 by bob_veng

[Lightbringer]

Ooh! It should totally include Firkraag's battle against young Gorion, too! Maybe an option where he could join your party.

Which one joins, you ask? Why not both?

I see nothing wrong with this request. Nope, nothing.

[bob_veng]

yeah, gorion and firkraag (then also simply called firkraag in his human form) are buddies solving IWD, and in the final battle firkraag resumes his dragon form, revealing his intentions - to usurp belhifets scheme and open the gate for his devil-dragon brethren whom he has a pact with (maybe he wants to rule the world with his fiendish dragon girlfriend). he tries to kill belhifet, but belhifet simply throws his hands up in the air and beams out, thus staying alive for you to kill him in SoD, and the player - as gorion - actually has to fight firkraag at the end of IWD instead. you wound him, the tower starts collapsing in belhifet's absence, and he flies away.

[Lightbringer]

That ....

is oddly more "plausible" each time I read it.

[The_Rock]

I'm playing through Icewind Dale 2 right now so it's got me thinking how EET ought to balance experience gain across the board. It's no groundbreaking idea, I know, but reducing the gain globally so that players can't finish IWD or IWD2 in one go but are encouraged to change campaign settings on the fly seems best to me. It would also make EET more Metroidvania-esque as the world would slowly open up to the player like a tree branching out. 

[Lightbringer]

I think that's how I plan to play it, more or less -- though I'm not sure yet how I want to manage the XP issue. So far, I've been making everyone be multi-classed, but keeping normal XP. I expect over leveling and use SCS to compensate. Probably going to need the inflated quest XP rewards in IWD to be normalized in any case.

[Jarno Mikkola]

8 hours ago, Lightbringer said:

 So far, I've been making everyone be multi-classed, but keeping normal XP.

So rather than actually penalizing yourself, you have just doubled down and gained more benefit. Nice.

[Guest GunnerBlack]

Just a thought on IWD 1 implementation. Coincidentally this also begins in Ulgoths Beard. Shandalar. Hear me out... he sends you up to an icy island possibly within a days boat ride to Easthaven. And it wouldn't be much of a stretch due to the magical nature of this island to question WHEN he sent you back. You go, get his cloak, you can return OR maybe use some tools you find to construct a boat, and land in easthaven. Have a whole adventure, end up back on the island after the final chapter, and now the lands of IWD are discoverable, but of course having returned to your own time, they are now the stage for IWD2. Minimal rewriting, and finally making use of that useless little island and it's useless little quest and Shandalar the useless npc. 

[bob_veng]

that's the typical time travel scenario - problem is people should remember you in the starting timeline, and they don't

[Lightbringer]

On 9/7/2019 at 2:22 AM, Jarno Mikkola said:

So rather than actually penalizing yourself, you have just doubled down and gained more benefit. Nice.

Heh, not sure if that was sarcasm or sincerity, Imp

I've thought about it a lot, actually. I don't usually have a great need to feel "challenged", but I don't want things to be a total walk in the park, either. I also don't go heavy on the spellcasting, so the greatest effects of level gains (spell slots) aren't as heavily felt in my party.
 

Part of the problem is that, in my mind, a hobgoblin is worth 35xp, and a troll is worth 1400xp, etc. If I reduce things, I'm going to feel cheated. Feeling like I'm not receiving the full reward is a quick way to get me to lose interest. I'd actually rather hand craft adjusted XP tables for everyone (even if the result is effectively the same as above) than reduce the raw gain. It's a mind game, but still necessary for my own proclivities.

I sort of use multiclassing as a shortcut for halving the XP gain. It's not perfect, but I like multiclassing in my D&D anyway. I also get to feel like I'm getting something out of it, not just receiving half the gain for the same activity pre-EET. In fact, I actually plan to have my Pally (who can't multiclass) be something of a benchmark. I'll probably periodically reduce her XP via console to keep her from being more than a couple levels ahead of the rest of the party, late-game. Maybe I won't feel the need to.

[Lightbringer]

On 9/6/2019 at 11:26 AM, The_Rock said:

I'm playing through Icewind Dale 2 right now so it's got me thinking how EET ought to balance experience gain across the board. It's no groundbreaking idea, I know, but reducing the gain globally so that players can't finish IWD or IWD2 in one go but are encouraged to change campaign settings on the fly seems best to me. It would also make EET more Metroidvania-esque as the world would slowly open up to the player like a tree branching out. 

I think I understand your point now better than I did at first.

By reducing global gain, the experience you gain from the Vale of Shadows would NOT be enough to ready you for the Temple of the Forgotten God or Dragon's Eye. You would have to return to the Sword Coast and do other things, then return to IWD later, with greater levels.  Is that what you intended?

I think some amount of that may be achieved by normalizing the (ridiculous) quest xp in vanilla IWD. It was designed to artificially propel you up the XP charts. Without that, you will likely have a different leveling experience, though perhaps not to the full extent of a Metroidvania-esque unlocking of areas. Personally I'm a big fan of Metroidvania elements in gameplay, as part of your reward for accomplishing tasks is a new tool to find more cool things -- or access the things you've been seeing the whole time. Tougher to do in traditional RPGs. It's more of an action-adventure-RPG type of thing, by default -- like Legend of Zelda.

[The_Rock]

9 hours ago, Lightbringer said:

I think I understand your point now better than I did at first.

By reducing global gain, the experience you gain from the Vale of Shadows would NOT be enough to ready you for the Temple of the Forgotten God or Dragon's Eye. You would have to return to the Sword Coast and do other things, then return to IWD later, with greater levels.  Is that what you intended?

I think some amount of that may be achieved by normalizing the (ridiculous) quest xp in vanilla IWD. It was designed to artificially propel you up the XP charts. Without that, you will likely have a different leveling experience, though perhaps not to the full extent of a Metroidvania-esque unlocking of areas. Personally I'm a big fan of Metroidvania elements in gameplay, as part of your reward for accomplishing tasks is a new tool to find more cool things -- or access the things you've been seeing the whole time. Tougher to do in traditional RPGs. It's more of an action-adventure-RPG type of thing, by default -- like Legend of Zelda.

Yes, mate, that's exactly what I had in mind! Imagine a game with several main quest lines that can be begun by a low-level party. The more headway you make in one line the tougher things get while the experience gain has very little to show for it. In that case you choose the next one you'd like to tackle and switch quests over and over again until you have all the quest branches resolved with incremental returns as far as story elements and narration. There's potential to make terrific non-linear experiences with high replay value that way just like BG1 and Shadows of Amn.