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grodrigues

Dealing with anti-spell protections

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29 minutes ago, DavidW said:

To repeat: breach does not bypass II in SCS. (Not that I find this particularly convincing anyway.)

DavidW means to say that the Breach doesn't remove the Improved Invisibility, it just disables the other protections the subject under the small area of effect have, aka PfMW for example. Which means that as soon as the idiot shows his face again and say begins to cast long delay spell, you can try to hit it with your weapons, which is impossible with PfMW for most type of creatures that use the CHEESE, but it still has the +4 AC from the Improved Invisibility, and can get cloaked if they stop casting spells, and it's not removed by other effects.

So rather than a hand grenade, it's a EMP effect against electronic protection that penetrates that armor, but doesn't actually explode, or make it visible. So now there's a hole in the target that can be exploited... in this case if it's seen.

And technically, that's what "bypass" means.

Char1: "No, you can't bypass this wall."

Char2: "Erhm you mean I can't bypass ... a globe, cause I am pretty sure I can just use a ladder to bypass a wall. Even if it's that one."

Char1: "OK, I meant you can't penetrate this wall." -inane mumbling-

Edited by Jarno Mikkola

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1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

DavidW means to say that the Breach doesn't remove the Improved Invisibility, it just disables the other protections the subject under the small area of effect have, aka PfMW for example. 

I didn't mean any such thing: this is completely wrong.

I meant what I said: Breach, in SCS, cannot and never could be targeted on creatures with Improved Invisibility active. Only anti-spell-defense spells (Spell Thrust, Ruby Ray et al) work that way. If you want to breach someone, you need to remove their spell deflection/turning, their Spell Immunity: Abjuration, and their improved invisibility first.

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7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Well, I think SR's use of 193 could be more comprehensive, but players can get that in Tome & Blood when installed on top of SR, so I don't think SR itself needs to change.

A bit off-topic, but could you expound upon this point? I opened up the Tome and Blood readme pdf real quick to see if it mentioned improved invisibility and possibly see what you meant by this, but it did not.

Edited by Bartimaeus

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58 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

A bit off-topic, but could you expound upon this point? I opened up the Tome and Blood readme pdf real quick to see if it mentioned improved invisibility and possibly see what you meant by this, but it did not.

SR's use of 193 allows you to penetrate Improved Invisibility, but not basic invisibility.  TnB covers both - someone with basic invisibility + nondetection in a TnB game could be targeted by a mage who casts See Invisible, but not by the mage's companions.

The code used to achieve that is limited to the EE engine, so I don't recommend that SR do the same thing.  EE players who want the more comprehensive version can just install TnB.

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35 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

SR's use of 193 allows you to penetrate Improved Invisibility, but not basic invisibility.  TnB covers both - someone with basic invisibility + nondetection in a TnB game could be targeted by a mage who casts See Invisible, but not by the mage's companions.

The code used to achieve that is limited to the EE engine, so I don't recommend that SR do the same thing.  EE players who want the more comprehensive version can just install TnB.

Thanks for the explanation. That's pretty cool, although...so I guess with that installed, Non-Detection does absolutely nothing against the mage/cleric with opcode 193, but continues to act as invisible (i.e. untargetable via spells or attacks) for everyone else?

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With II, Nondetection preserves the massive +4 bonuses to saves and AC. With regular invisibility, yeah, someone who can see invisible things can see you when you are invisible. Nondetection stops your invisibility from being out-and-out dispelled. It's more SI:Div than Nondetection. (We discussed elsewhere the possibility of changing its name to "Protection from Divination" or the like, which I support.)

EDIT - worth noting: with SR, Nondetection stops basic invisibility from being dispelled, which means enemies have no sprite and no selection circle, so even with opcode 193 you cannot target them. This seems to be a 'truer' version of Nondetection... but if you turn on party AI, the character with 193 can auto-attack the invisible person. And I believe AI mages can target you right through Nondetection, because their AI targeting does not have the limitation of the player's need to click a sprite on the screen. So TnB evens the playing field, at the cost of kinda-sorta nerfing Nondetection. 

(This might be an alternative place where we can add some external benefit, like Spell Evasion or a save bonus or something, to offset the nerf. That would be easy enough to add.)

Edited by subtledoctor

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