Dealing with anti-spell protections

[Jarno Mikkola]

29 minutes ago, DavidW said:

To repeat: breach does not bypass II in SCS. (Not that I find this particularly convincing anyway.)

DavidW means to say that the Breach doesn't remove the Improved Invisibility, it just disables the other protections the subject under the small area of effect have, aka PfMW for example. Which means that as soon as the idiot shows his face again and say begins to cast long delay spell, you can try to hit it with your weapons, which is impossible with PfMW for most type of creatures that use the CHEESE, but it still has the +4 AC from the Improved Invisibility, and can get cloaked if they stop casting spells, and it's not removed by other effects.

So rather than a hand grenade, it's a EMP effect against electronic protection that penetrates that armor, but doesn't actually explode, or make it visible. So now there's a hole in the target that can be exploited... in this case if it's seen.

And technically, that's what "bypass" means.

Char1: "No, you can't bypass this wall."

Char2: "Erhm you mean I can't bypass ... a globe, cause I am pretty sure I can just use a ladder to bypass a wall. Even if it's that one."

Char1: "OK, I meant you can't penetrate this wall." -inane mumbling-

Edited July 12, 2019 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

DavidW means to say that the Breach doesn't remove the Improved Invisibility, it just disables the other protections the subject under the small area of effect have, aka PfMW for example. 

I didn't mean any such thing: this is completely wrong.

I meant what I said: Breach, in SCS, cannot and never could be targeted on creatures with Improved Invisibility active. Only anti-spell-defense spells (Spell Thrust, Ruby Ray et al) work that way. If you want to breach someone, you need to remove their spell deflection/turning, their Spell Immunity: Abjuration, and their improved invisibility first.

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Well, I think SR's use of 193 could be more comprehensive, but players can get that in Tome & Blood when installed on top of SR, so I don't think SR itself needs to change.

A bit off-topic, but could you expound upon this point? I opened up the Tome and Blood readme pdf real quick to see if it mentioned improved invisibility and possibly see what you meant by this, but it did not.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

58 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

A bit off-topic, but could you expound upon this point? I opened up the Tome and Blood readme pdf real quick to see if it mentioned improved invisibility and possibly see what you meant by this, but it did not.

SR's use of 193 allows you to penetrate Improved Invisibility, but not basic invisibility.  TnB covers both - someone with basic invisibility + nondetection in a TnB game could be targeted by a mage who casts See Invisible, but not by the mage's companions.

The code used to achieve that is limited to the EE engine, so I don't recommend that SR do the same thing.  EE players who want the more comprehensive version can just install TnB.

[Bartimaeus]

35 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

SR's use of 193 allows you to penetrate Improved Invisibility, but not basic invisibility.  TnB covers both - someone with basic invisibility + nondetection in a TnB game could be targeted by a mage who casts See Invisible, but not by the mage's companions.

The code used to achieve that is limited to the EE engine, so I don't recommend that SR do the same thing.  EE players who want the more comprehensive version can just install TnB.

Thanks for the explanation. That's pretty cool, although...so I guess with that installed, Non-Detection does absolutely nothing against the mage/cleric with opcode 193, but continues to act as invisible (i.e. untargetable via spells or attacks) for everyone else?

[subtledoctor]

With II, Nondetection preserves the massive +4 bonuses to saves and AC. With regular invisibility, yeah, someone who can see invisible things can see you when you are invisible. Nondetection stops your invisibility from being out-and-out dispelled. It's more SI:Div than Nondetection. (We discussed elsewhere the possibility of changing its name to "Protection from Divination" or the like, which I support.)

EDIT - worth noting: with SR, Nondetection stops basic invisibility from being dispelled, which means enemies have no sprite and no selection circle, so even with opcode 193 you cannot target them. This seems to be a 'truer' version of Nondetection... but if you turn on party AI, the character with 193 can auto-attack the invisible person. And I believe AI mages can target you right through Nondetection, because their AI targeting does not have the limitation of the player's need to click a sprite on the screen. So TnB evens the playing field, at the cost of kinda-sorta nerfing Nondetection. 

(This might be an alternative place where we can add some external benefit, like Spell Evasion or a save bonus or something, to offset the nerf. That would be easy enough to add.)

Edited July 12, 2019 by subtledoctor

[culmore]

Im on a. Mac running the latest Enhanced edition from the App Store , I installed SR first version V4 b18 and then SCS V32. QUESTION Is this the correct way to install? I am only running these two mods. Fresh install of all three.

 

I'm fighting Constar my nemesis from a previous run through. My party of five is level 11 or so  Constar casts among other things

Spell Deflection Level 5, Dispelling Screen Level 5, Minor GoI Level 4, Non Detection Level 3.

Then I think improved invisibility. So I cast true sight on my cleric, Edwin of course does not have true sight. Then I start casting Spell Trust which according to the log is doing something and interrupting his casting. I still cannot cast breach because I cannot target him directly but Spell trust has an AOE so that I can cast. He also has Protection from the Elements running so I cannot AOE him with Acid fog/fireball etc. It will take four casts of Spell trust to get rid of his Non Detection since it is a level 3 spell and the other spell protections are level 4 and higher (spell trust removes the highest first). QUESTION What else could I do to get rid of his Non detection, is there a better way??? Thats a lot of spell trusts that are required. 

Now he is beating up my team with high level spells so I resort to cheese and run away. Eventually after zoning in and out a few times he dies. What the heck. QUESTION is this the AI for my melee teams members targeting him which I as a player cannot???? 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by culmore

[subtledoctor]

Maybe? Hard to say just from that description. 

True Sight only penetrates Nondetection for the caster, so casting it with your cleric does little to help Edwin. But Edwin should be able to cast 2nd-level See Invisible... that will let him penetrate Nondetection and target the enemy with higher-level stuff like Warding Whip and Pierce Magic. 

[culmore]

Thanks subledoctor for your reply

see invisible is divination that’s the opposite school to Edwins conjugation so he can’t cast it.

or is there some special item I can get for Edwin ...

Edited May 22, 2020 by culmore

[culmore]

Also in the  un modded game does true sight only "work" for the caster? I have missed that important fact all my baldurs gate life?

 

Also is the  thiefs detect illusion ability  a solution? My thief  has 105 in detect illusion. Can he dispell the illusions for my entire team?

Edited May 22, 2020 by culmore

[subtledoctor]

I think low-level divination spells can be used by conjurers...? (They call “lesser divination” its own spell school.)

From PnP, True Sight is only supposed to affect the caster. The vanilla BG2 game changed to an area-wide effect that dispels illusions on enemies (but it useless against thief w/ item-induced Nondetection, or against anyone with SI:Div). SR blends the two: TS dispels (some) illusionary buffs area-wide; but that dispelling is blocked by SI:Div (the new Nondetection); but even then there is a caster-only effect that allows you to target the enemy with spells. Also it blocks/cures blindness.

EDIT - see here.

Yes, thief with DI can dispel all illusionary buffs area-wide, it cannot be blocked, it is hard-coded.

Edited May 22, 2020 by subtledoctor

[culmore]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I think low-level divination spells can be used by conjurers...? (They call “lesser divination” its own spell school.)

From PnP, True Sight is only supposed to affect the caster. The vanilla BG2 game changed to an area-wide effect that dispels illusions on enemies (but it useless against thief w/ item-induced Nondetection, or against anyone with SI:Div). SR blends the two: TS dispels (some) illusionary buffs area-wide; but that dispelling is blocked by SI:Div (the new Nondetection); but even then there is a caster-only effect that allows you to target the enemy with spells. Also it blocks/cures blindness.

EDIT - see here.

Yes, thief with DI can dispel all illusionary buffs area-wide, it cannot be blocked, it is hard-coded.

 thanks for your reply Subtledoctor, now I believe I understand . You have helped me.

 

Edwin cannot learn or use in a quick item slot Detect Invisibility level 2 arcane , (on my game at least). I tried in adventurers mart  a few minutes ago.

 

But if my thief Jan can dispel the illusions then my team is good to go. Still it is quite a nerf for Edwin over vanilla, maybe justified he is op. But harsh on a specialist conjugation mages that are player rolled.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by culmore

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, culmore said:

  Still it is quite a nerf for Edwin over vanilla, maybe justified he is op. But harsh on a specialist conjugation mages that are player rolled.

a) Edwin deserves it, he is a jerk

b) It is the same in the unmodded game, any mage can cast SI:Div and prevent their Improved Invisibility from being dispelled.  SR actually gives you a chance to overcome that.  For all except conjurers, it increases your arsenal when dealing with such challenges.

[culmore]

31 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

a) Edwin deserves it, he is a jerk

b) It is the same in the unmodded game, any mage can cast SI:Div and prevent their Improved Invisibility from being dispelled.  SR actually gives you a chance to overcome that.  For all except conjurers, it increases your arsenal when dealing with such challenges.

Now you are insulting jerks  Too funny when he turns into a woman and gets laughed at by all

Fair points. Im happy, thanks so much to both of you for educating me.

[Bartimaeus]

@culmore Yeah, can't say I'm too upset about Edwin having some kind of weakness, given his overwhelming power compared to other mages.

However...one thing you can do to get around this is to use the Book of Infinite Spells' True Seeing with him. Most likely the best use of that item if you're using Edwin, honestly.