Dealing with anti-spell protections

[culmore]

23 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

@culmore Yeah, can't say I'm too upset about Edwin having some kind of weakness, given his overwhelming power compared to other mages.

However...one thing you can do to get around this is to use the Book of Infinite Spells' True Seeing with him. Most likely the best use of that item if you're using Edwin, honestly.

 two extra spells per level. that's a lot. even one extra would have been good but two......

Good thinking the book of infinite spells. 

[culmore]

How about making Edwins amulet drop when he is killed and making it wearable by any specialist conjurer? or some such...

I dont even consider other mages Edwin is so much better. With SCS my main mage needs a lot of casts of spells. Maybe I should roll a sorcerer... or....

[Bartimaeus]

12 hours ago, culmore said:

How about making Edwins amulet drop when he is killed and making it wearable by any specialist conjurer? or some such...

I dont even consider other mages Edwin is so much better. With SCS my main mage needs a lot of casts of spells. Maybe I should roll a sorcerer... or....

https://github.com/BartyMae/Bart_Tweaks

I haven't used it myself, but I made the option for someone else and put it in this. Component #4 "Droppable/Movable NPC Items".

[culmore]

On 5/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, Bartimaeus said:

https://github.com/BartyMae/Bart_Tweaks

I haven't used it myself, but I made the option for someone else and put it in this. Component #4 "Droppable/Movable NPC Items".

Thanks I think I'll do just  that on a "good" play through. Nalia, Jaheira , Anomen, Aerie , 

Save me the pain of listening to Edwin ...

Edited May 25, 2020 by culmore

[crackwise]

I will be reviving this thread, but I have also had problems when facing enemy mages with improved invisibility and non-detection (using SRv4b18). The main problem is that the in-game spell descriptions are unfortunately lacking.

However, thanks to the suggestions here by Subtledoctor and other users, I was able to understand how it works. I have tested those suggestions and have observed the following. I am a bit confused by some:

- Arcane spell Detect Invisibility indeed allows the caster to target an II mage.

- True Sight / True Seeing both also do the same as above.

- Cleric spell Invisibility Purge, despite being Level 3, does not allow the caster to target II. The in-game spell descriptions are the same as Lvl 2 mage Detect Invisibility, so why does the priest version of this spell not work the same in this regard? Is this intentional?

- I have also tried the suggestion of using Potion of Sight (those purple potions, which have replaced potions of Infravision). Unfortunately, they don't allow II targeting.

[Bartimaeus]

Invisibility Purge: They do not have the same effects and I don't believe they're supposed to, regardless of what their descriptions say. Invisibility Purge applies a stronger effect that strips invisibility, improved invisibility, sanctuary, and stealth(?) from enemies for everyone - but however, if protected by Non-Detection, has no effect. It's a little oddball, but basically Detect Invisibility is better again Non-Detection enemies since it applies a personal buff that lets the caster of Detect Invisibility to target through improved invisibility, while Invisibility Purge is better in all other cases *not* involving Non-Detection. The descriptions should not be the same and they aren't in SRR (and also Invisibility Purge lasts a full turn instead of Detect Invisibility's 5 rounds in SRR, while it only lasts 5 rounds in SR - my attempt at making it a little bit stronger).

Potion of Sight: Even in IRR, these don't allow improved invisibility targeting. Whoops. I'm going to change that, but if you don't use IRR, doesn't do much for you, .

[crackwise]

Thank you so much Bartimaeus for the quick reply!

Since this is my first time playing with SR, I had installed the latest release (exe version from GitHub) and did not know that SRR existed. I now see that you have made a lot of corrections and improvements in your Revised version. Is it possible for me to install your latest SRR (and maybe IRR also) on top of my current SR version? And would it work properly if I installed them on an ongoing game? (Playing BGT, just finished BG1 and about to start BG2)

 

[Bartimaeus]

SRR and IRR requires that you reinstall IR and SR, which, depending on how many mods you have installed after them, could be quite a hassle to reinstall + a high likelihood of some strings getting messed up for your save file. I *probably* unfortunately wouldn't recommend it.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

 It's a little oddball, but basically Detect Invisibility is better again Non-Detection enemies since it applies a personal buff that lets the caster of Detect Invisibility to target through improved invisibility, while Invisibility Purge is better in all other cases *not* involving Non-Detection.

The idea is that Detect Invisible should let the caster (only!) see and target invisible creatures; while Invisibility Purge attacks enemies' invisibility and strips it away, rendering them visible to everyone. I like that idea!  Two different approaches to dealing with invisibility, each with different strengths and drawbacks (Detect only helps the caster, but bypasses Nondetection; Purge helps everyone on the caster's team, but is blocked by Nondetection).

In my personal game "Nondetection" has its name changed to "Protection from Divination" which makes it nice and clear that it will protect you from an Invisibility Purge, but will not stop enemies from improving their own vision with Detect Invisible.  Of course,

• Base SR (and SRR?) still calls Nondetection "Nondetection," which is clear as mud.
• Base SR applies opcode 116 to targets for a few rounds, which doesn't really make sense and is contrary to the spell's SR concept. BUT: Nondetection will protection you from this semi-invisibility-purge aspect of Detect Invisible... in other words, Nondetection makes the spell work as intended, only allowing the caster of Detect Invisible

The first issue is easy to address.  SR should simply rename Nondection to be clearer.  (And btw "Detect Invisible" should be renamed to "See Invisible," which Demi himself actually planned to do to distinguish it from the thief skill.)

The second issue is harder to address.  SRR balances things by giving Invisibility Purge a longer duration, but that doesn't help distinguish the two spells' concepts.  I have fixed all this in Tome & Blood's "Revised Invisibility" component:

• Detect Invisible enables the caster (and ONLY the caster) to target invisible creatures, and this is not blocked by Nondetection/Protection from Divination.
• Invisibility Purge strips invisibility away from all enemies, on a recurring basis, enabling anyone to see them; but this can be blocked by Nondetection/Pro. Divination.
• True Sight combines both of those effects, and also dispels all other illusions of 3rd level or below (Mirror Image, Blur, etc.); in this case Nondetection/Pro. Divination will preserve targets' invisibility and illusionary buffs, but does not stop the True Sight caster from targeting them. 

I feel that is the most consistent version of how these spells work, and is actually the best realization of Demi's vision for them.  So my advice is, 1) upgrade to EE, and 2) use Tome & Blood on top of SR/SRR.  (That component of Tome & Blood is EE-only, because it has to mess around with the Sanctuary effect a bit, and needs EE's opcode 321 to correctly handle visual effects.)

Edited June 18, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

23 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

The idea is that Detect Invisible should let the caster (only!) see and target invisible creatures; while Invisibility Purge attacks enemies' invisibility and strips it away, rendering them visible to everyone. I like that idea!  Two different approaches to dealing with invisibility, each with different strengths and drawbacks (Detect only helps the caster, but bypasses Nondetection; Purge helps everyone on the caster's team, but is blocked by Nondetection).

In my personal game "Nondetection" has its name changed to "Protection from Divination" which makes it nice and clear that it will protect you from an Invisibility Purge, but will not stop enemies from improving their own vision with Detect Invisible.  Of course,

• Base SR (and SRR?) still calls Nondetection "Nondetection," which is clear as mud.
• Base SR applies opcode 116 to targets for a few rounds, which doesn't really make sense and is contrary to the spell's SR concept. BUT: Nondetection will protection you from this semi-invisibility-purge aspect of Detect Invisible... in other words, Nondetection makes the spell work as intended, only allowing the caster of Detect Invisible

The first issue is easy to address.  SR should simply rename Nondection to be clearer.  (And btw "Detect Invisible" should be renamed to "See Invisible," which Demi himself actually planned to do to distinguish it from the thief skill.)

The second issue is harder to address.  SRR balances things by giving Invisibility Purge a longer duration, but that doesn't help distinguish the two spells' concepts.  I have fixed all this in Tome & Blood's "Revised Invisibility" component:

• Detect Invisible enables the caster (and ONLY the caster) to target invisible creatures, and this is not blocked by Nondetection/Protection from Divination.
• Invisibility Purge strips invisibility away from all enemies, on a recurring basis, enabling anyone to see them; but this can be blocked by Nondetection/Pro. Divination.
• True Sight combines both of those effects, and also dispels all other illusions of 3rd level or below (Mirror Image, Blur, etc.); in this case Nondetection/Pro. Divination will preserve targets' invisibility and illusionary buffs, but does not stop the True Sight caster from targeting them. 

I feel that is the most consistent version of how these spells work, and is actually the best realization of Demi's vision for them.  So my advice is, 1) upgrade to EE, and 2) use Tome & Blood on top of SR/SRR.  (That component of Tome & Blood is EE-only, because it has to mess around with the Sanctuary effect a bit, and needs EE's opcode 321 to correctly handle visual effects.)

Okay, so a few things here:

1. Non-Detection name: I don't really care what it's called, since I've already done a re-write of its description and have hopefully made it clear what it all protects and what it doesn't. I'd probably only change its name if base SR did as well. I'm a bit of an originalist when it comes to spell and item names, and while it might not be perfect, it's at least loosely related enough for me to not feel like it's in *dire* need of a change.

2. Detect Invisibility: Isn't the thief skill called "Detect Illusion"? Similar, but not a direct overlap with the spell name - and it makes sense, since the thief Detect Illusions also dispels illusionary spells like Mirror Image.

3. "I have fixed all this in Tome & Blood's 'Revised Invisibility' component": I don't quite understand - all three steps that you just listed out...are already what SR does in implementation (sans whatever thingy you did with Sanctuary in the EEs), right? The descriptions of Non-Detection, Detect Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, and True Seeing (all of which I rewrote) are the actual problem (none of them fully explain their mechanics or everything that they do), not the actual implementations which I think already match your descriptions in what I quoted.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[crackwise]

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation of the invisibility system Subtledoctor! Unfortunately, I don't have the EE games so I can't try your mod at the moment.

So from what I understand, the combination of II with Nondetection is not a viable defense strategy against mages anymore (as it used to be in vanilla or SCS without SR) since it can easily be bypassed by a Lvl2 spell. So Nondetection allows you rather to keep the AC and ST bonuses you get from the II (and make the lives of enemies without DI or TS harder of course.)

This actually makes the Deflection Spells much more important as defenses againsy mages if I understand it correctly. 

May I ask what the Thief skill Detect Illusion does? From my game with SR so far it dispels illusions but can't dispel invisibility? And is also blocked by Nondetection, right?

Sorry for lot's of questions. Due to different documentation versions I got confused initially.

[subtledoctor]

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

I don't quite understand - all three steps that you just listed out...are already what SR does in implementation

No.  In the base game, and in SR, and in SRR, Detect Invisible is a Divination Attack that strips invisibility away from enemies.  It is functionally the same as Invisibility Purge, except Detect is actually better in that it adds the opcode 193 effect for the caster.   If I was to make a simple improvement to SR that doesn't go as far as TnB does, I would simply eliminate Invisibility Purge, and instead let priests cast Detect Invisible as a 3rd-level spell.  (That still would not, however, solve the problem of Detect Invisibility not doing what it says on the tin.  And it doesn't solve the problem that the 2nd-level Detect Invisible is too strong, being nearly as good as True Sight.)

With Tome & Blood, Detect Invisible does not strip anyone's invisibility away.  It does not expose anyone who is invisible; it only makes them visible and targetable to the caster, period.  In other words, it does what it says on the tin. 

I could probably, maybe, possibly, make it work on the pre-EE engine.  Maybe I should look into it...

[Bartimaeus]

2 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

With Tome & Blood, Detect Invisible does not strip anyone's invisibility away.  It does not expose anyone who is invisible; it only makes them visible and targetable to the caster, period.  In other words, it does what it says on the tin.

By what opcode do you make an enemy that is currently invisible (i.e. no selection circle or character sprite at all) visible and targetable to one character but not to another/the rest of your party?

[Bartimaeus]

6 minutes ago, crackwise said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation of the invisibility system Subtledoctor! Unfortunately, I don't have the EE games so I can't try your mod at the moment.

So from what I understand, the combination of II with Nondetection is not a viable defense strategy against mages anymore (as it used to be in vanilla or SCS without SR) since it can easily be bypassed by a Lvl2 spell. So Nondetection allows you rather to keep the AC and ST bonuses you get from the II (and make the lives of enemies without DI or TS harder of course.)

This actually makes the Deflection Spells much more important as defenses againsy mages if I understand it correctly. 

May I ask what the Thief skill Detect Illusion does? From my game with SR so far it dispels illusions but can't dispel invisibility? And is also blocked by Nondetection, right?

Sorry for lot's of questions. Due to different documentation versions I got confused initially.

Non-Detection is still useful in that combined with improved invisibility, makes it so that any spellcaster that does not currently have a Detect Invisibility or True Seeing running cannot target you with spellcasting - same goes for you against enemy spellcasters. This is why Edwin has one major weakness in the fact that he's a conjurer - you can have Keldorn cast his innate True Seeing all you like against an improved invisible + with Non-Detection mage, but Edwin still will not be able to target that improved invisible mage because Edwin himself does not have Detect Invisibility or True Seeing running. Each individual spellcaster you might have would need to have it running - and yeah, it protects the bonuses of Improved Invisibility and other illusionary spells from being dispelled. So about what you might expect from a 3rd level spell.

Detect Illusion should be able to strip all illusionary effects upon a successful roll. I only use it every blue moon, personally, so I'm not 100% knowledgeable on it, but that's my understanding. I'm unsure about how it interacts with stealth, Sanctuary, and Non-Detection (would it dispel the improved invisibility effect even if protected with Non-Detection? If so, that'd make it quite powerful).

[subtledoctor]

19 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

By what opcode do you make an enemy that is currently invisible (i.e. no selection circle or character sprite at all) visible and targetable to one character but not to another/the rest of your party?

I apply Invisibility and Sanctuary simultaneously.  Detect Invisible eliminates the opcode 20 invisibility, and thus makes the selection circle visible.  Sanctuary is still in effect, so the hidden person is still protected; but the Detect Invisible caster has opcode 193 and so ignores the Sanctuary effect. 

Potions of sight should work just like the Detect Invisible spell (IMHO).  Then they, too, would have their effect limited to the drinker of the potion (doing, again, What It Says On The Tin)  I just now realized that they don't apply opcode 193... I'll have to add that myself.

24 minutes ago, crackwise said:

So from what I understand, the combination of II with Nondetection is not a viable defense strategy against mages anymore (as it used to be in vanilla or SCS without SR) since it can easily be bypassed by a Lvl2 spell

I mean, you cannot use II + Nondetection the way you could use II + SI:Div in the vanilla game to become entirely immune to being targeted by enemies.  That is by design; in my opinion and I believe in Demi's opinion, being easily able to entirely thwart SCS mages is a dumb game mechanic - tantamount to just hitting ctrl-Y.  With SR, to be protected, you actually need to use things like Spell Deflection and Dispelling Screen.  It makes for a more level playing field and a more challenging and satisfying experience.

Improved invisibility is still useful, of course - they still protect you from enemies who cannot see invisible.  And Nondetection still protects your invisibility from being dispelled outright, so you retain, for example, the AC and saving throw bonuses of II.

Edited June 18, 2020 by subtledoctor