A discussion: New spells as innates vs. spellbook

[BigRob]

I don't really consider it a problem if Kitted clerics get the bonus spells added to their spell book. It's not exactly how specialty priests operate in PnP, but I'd rather have to make the choice for sensible memorization myself than have to rest every time I reload a game.

 

 

Specialty mages also have this problem. In PnP they're supposed to get 1 extra spell per level of their own school only. In practice, I can load Edwin up with nothing but fireballs. So it's up to the player really.

[Sir Kalthorine]

I agree 100% with the general comment that "not perfectly implemented but bug-free" is so much more preferable than "well it usually works, so just ignore/work around the bugs please guys". I am sure that I am not alone in finding that bugs (however small) really do destroy the suspension of disbelief necessary to properly enjoy playing through the same game numerous times just to experience different tweaks and mods.

 

Personally, I would go for the inclusion of kit-specific spells within Spell Books. While some may consider it against the "spirit" of the remix mod to allow more than one instance of an "innate" kit-specific spell to be memorised at any one time, I still think that it is infinitely more desirable than any alternative that has been proposed so far. Yes, it would be ideal to find a way fo doing it the way it has been attempted (i.e. innate spell combined with 1 less spell slot per level), but if it is indeed an engine quirk that is preventing this then there is no dishonour or defeat in admitting such and finding an alternative (even if the alternative is not as "full" an implementation of the idea as people would ideally like).

 

I really wouldn't worry about any "imbalance" caused by being able to choose the innate spell as a "regular" spell. Compared with a lot of other ways of maniplating the game to one's advantage, this is really a no-brainer... and after all, the other kit disadvantages of spell choice introduced by the excellent clerical "spheres" idea are still in place, and to be honest if a player is the kind of person who likes to eke every unfair advantage they can out of the game by using every "legal" tweak and tactic they can (and do not, as I do, see "cheesy" tactics as as much of a "cheat" as hacking or save game editing), then they are going to find a way of doing it anyway.

 

I say we bite our pride and swallow the bullet (or something like that ) and go with the "include innates in the spell book" idea. It may not be as "elegant" a solution as the originally conceived method, but it really isn't cheesy or unfairly unbalancing, and above all it works.

[jester]

I will miss the chimeing when I enter the Government District , but the inclusion sounds good to me.

 

On a sidenote I still think that godless priests are a somewhat shaky idea given the fact that a priest receives his spellcasting power from his/her god AFAIK, but there might be a wholesale god for the downtrodden and godless priests around or a fallen priest might get his spells from a rival of his former god just in spite.

[NiGHTMARE]

Well, I'll list my preferences:

 

1) Find out why the bug only occurs on some systems and not all of them, and if there's any way of resolving it. Different versions (even the UK version of BG2 is different than the American version) or fixpatches seem the most likely culprits. Either that or some form of bizarre conflict between game and hardware.

 

We'll obviously need detailed system and game info from lots of people for this.

 

 

2) Remove kitless clerics, thus eliminating the need for spell slots to be removed. "Domain spells" could then be kept as innates.

 

 

3) Add "domain spells" to spellbook.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Well, I'll list my preferences:

 

1) Find out why the bug only occurs on some systems and not all of them, and if there's any way of resolving it.  Different versions (even the UK version of BG2 is different than the American version) or fixpatches seem the most likely culprits.  Either that or some form of bizarre conflict between game and hardware.

 

We'll obviously need detailed system and game info from lots of people for this.

 

 

2) Remove kitless clerics, thus eliminating the need for spell slots to be removed.  "Domain spells" could then be kept as innates.

 

 

3) Add "domain spells" to spellbook.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Removing kitless clerics is not an option, unless you either want to either remove the option of multi-class clerics or allow a kit as part of a multi-class combo (which is going against the spirit of the idea behind kits as a reason to go single-class).

 

What about another option:

 

4) Keep kitless clerics, and give them their own set of innates made up of a set of commonly chosen spells at each level, e.g. Cure Light Wounds (1st level spell), Hold Person (2nd level), Cure Moderate Wounds (3rd level), etc. Again, far from ideal, but a possible workaround that might be acceptable.

[SimDing0]

Prayer system please.

[CamDawg]

Prayer system please.

 

...and now to exlain what this is for the folks without workroom access.

 

One of the ideas that came up during the kitless clerics debate in the workroom was a prayer system porposed by Sim. The prayer system would have two primary functions: 1) if we went with kitless clerics the prayer would act as kit selection for multi- and dual-class clerics and 2) would allow kitted clerics to change deities. The basic idea is that a cleric would have an innate Prayer spell that could be activated and allow them to select a deity. Initial selection (i.e. going from a trueclass to a kit) would incur no penalty, but changing deities would incur major penalties, such as loss of spellcasting and abilities which would be regained over time. In regards to the issue at hand, this would allow us to implement kitless clerics and not have to use the one less spell per level penalty.

 

I'd like to point out that even if we go with the innates-as-spellbook spells I still like the idea of deity switching.

[Grim Squeaker]

My vote is for the prayer system.

[Sir Kalthorine]

I'd like to point out that even if we go with the innates-as-spellbook spells I still like the idea of deity switching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pick n Mix deities?

 

I will need a LOT of convincing on this one...

 

Hmmm...

 

"Today, Aunt Sally, 'oi be wearin' me Talos 'ead..."

 

[SimDing0]

As demonstrated by Viconia ingame, changing deity is possible. There's no reason not to allow the player the same capacity with severe penalties. It also adds a new dimension to gameplay, because if your alignment changes, you can carry on playing rather than reloading because you lose all your abilities.

You would not be able to gain kits via the prayer system. It would function to distinguish between spheres of a non-kitted cleric. This relies on the controversial distinction between Regular Clerics and Specialist Priests.

[Andyr]

Even if the Prayer system is implemented I'd like the option of kitless Clerics - if nothing else to represent deities we have not included.

[SimDing0]

Yeh, that's what I'm encouraging. There is, however, some debate over whether "Cleric of Helm" and "Watcher of Helm" should be separate.

[Andyr]

I think they should be the same thing - treat a cleric of a particular deity as being, in BG2 terms, a kit.

 

So... did people decide that adding the innates as memorisable spells wasn't so bad, in the end?

[SimDing0]

I think they should be the same thing - treat a cleric of a particular deity as being, in BG2 terms, a kit.

From what I hear, PnP says they're separate.

 

And my argument here is that I believe there's scope for a distinction between regular worshippers of a deity, and special priests who perform specific functions, making greater sacrifices for more tailored bonuses. It's also the least messy of any proposed method, because why on earth would you have to worship Helm via kit but Oghma (or whoever else doesn't fit on the kit list) via innate ability?

It also neatly solves the issue of multi-class clerics, because specialist priests of any god are then forced to be single class, while multi-class clerics can worship a god without performing such a specialised function.

[Andyr]

In pnp 2E, you have priests of a deity, yes. You also get kitted ones called Speciality Priests which are something different. What we were aiming for in the mod was to recreate something similar to these Speciality Priests in the kits.

 

Using Prayer or whatever would allow a multiclass to have a deity: this isn't the same as the Speciality Priest from pnp but the ethos - characters having specific deities - is the same.

 

And I'd not want anyone to worship one deity by kit and another by special ability... So a kitted cleric would not pick via the Prayer ability, there'd be no point.

 

I don't think I am exactly sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that the Prayer ability would only affect the spellbook, while the kits would give the other benefits too? That would be an interesting idea (then kits wouldn't need the Prayer ability at all).