Onox Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) Hi, I read that there used to be a PnP THAC0 table that let the base THAC0 go into negative values, but that there were problems with it [here] ; however, with the current tweak, THAC0 only decreases up to 1, whereas in the unmodded 2DA table provided with BG2:EE, it does go down to 0. This means that the tweak is actually a slight nerf for fighters and monks after level 20 ! Anyway, the tweak description, “THAC0 can now progress until it reaches zero instead of no longer improving once you hit level 20”, is wrong. (“once you hit level 20” is also inaccurate because in the original THAC0.2DA file, fighters get their THAC0 of 0 at level 21, and mages and shamans still get a decrease when they reach level 22.) In the linked post above, Miloch had written he believed that a THAC0 value of 0 was still valid for the engine even though IESDP says 1-25, and I also think that’s true. Some creatures, like fire giants, have a base THAC0 of 0, too So, shouldn’t this be changed ? Edited September 17, 2019 by Onox Quote Link to comment
ithildurnew Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Curious about this as well; Thac0 should go down to zero as it does in vanilla/unmodded. Currently it stops at 1; the result is that the component is a slight nerf for warrior classes compared to vanilla, which surely isn't an intended effect, not to mention being completely out of line with the readme description. Edited December 10, 2019 by ithildurnew Quote Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2DA V1.0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 MAGE 20 20 20 19 19 19 18 18 18 17 17 17 16 16 16 15 15 15 14 14 14 13 13 13 12 12 12 11 11 11 10 10 10 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 FIGHTER 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 -12 CLERIC 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 9 8 8 7 6 6 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 THIEF 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 BARD 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 PALADIN 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 DRUID 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 9 8 8 7 6 6 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 RANGER 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 FIGHTER_MAGE 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 FIGHTER_CLERIC 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 FIGHTER_THIEF 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 MAGE_THIEF 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 7 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 CLERIC_MAGE 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 9 8 8 7 6 6 5 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 CLERIC_THIEF 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 9 8 8 7 6 6 5 4 4 3 2 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 FIGHTER_DRUID 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 FIGHTER_MAGE_CLERIC 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 CLERIC_RANGER 20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 MONK 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1 0 0 -1 -1 -2 -2 -3 -3 -4 -4 -5 -5 -6 -6 -7 -7 -8 -8 -9 -9 -10 -10 -11 -11 -12 SORCERER 20 20 20 19 19 19 18 18 18 17 17 17 16 16 16 15 15 15 14 14 14 13 13 13 12 12 12 11 11 11 10 10 10 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 Make a new .txt file, copy paste the above code in it, and use save_as "THAC0.2DA", yes, that removes the .txt extension, and then copy paste the resulting file into the game folders override folder... and in non-EE games you need to level up your characters. In EE's it might happen without the level up... might not, didn't check. Quote Link to comment
ithildurnew Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) Thanks but the issue isn't getting the 2da file fixed on my install, that's easy enough to do. I'm mostly wondering what's going on with this component, why it doesn't go down to zero, whether it's been confirmed that values below one or zero cause problems, etc. [edit] Also, your version has progression for warrior classes not improving incrementally each level consistently; it improves every other level starting at level 16 for pure Fighters, 17 for other warrior classes, etc. I'm sure you have your reasons why but it's not consistent with either vanilla progression nor the un-nerfed table and is instead a custom/homebrew table. That's perfectly fine to do for your own installation certainly, just might want to warn people when offering it publicly. Cheers. Edited December 11, 2019 by ithildurnew Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Doesn’t thac0 progression actually stop at 2 in PnP? For some reason that’s in my head... Quote Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 24 minutes ago, subtledoctor said: Doesn’t thac0 progression actually stop at 2 in PnP? For some reason that’s in my head... Why would it ? No, just because it's called to hit armor class zero, doesn't mean that you can't have a critical failure if you roll 1 if your Thac0 is 1 or zero... it's an automatic failure, just like 20 is a critical hit even if it normally wouldn't hit, even with it, cause your Thac0 is <implicitly> that bad. Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I don’t care about the ‘why’ or your dice-roll justifications. I just recall the PHB stopping at 2. For no particular reason. I’m asking if anyone has the PHB, is my recollection correct. Quote Link to comment
ithildurnew Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) https://www.purpleworm.org/rules/ According to this compilation of 2e rules (which includes the High Level Campaigns supplement content), Thac0 goes to 1 for warriors at level 20 (and apparently even at higher levels it's capped at 1). Unmodded BG/BG2/ToB goes to 0. Well known fact that the ruleset for BG2/ToB levels past 20 are kind of all over the place, very loosely based on 2e high level supplementary rules. The description of this mod component indicates it goes to negative digits. Instead, it stops at 1 like PnP... for WARRIORS. Strangely enough, it does not follow 2e high level rules on Thac0 caps for non warrior classes (Priests are supposed to stop at 8, rogues 11, Wizards at 14 per the High Level Campaigns supplement) Result: chaos and confusion, much gnashing of teeth. Takeaway: the component needs to be renamed "RE-NERFED THAC0 tables to match PnP for Warriors but UN-NERFED for everyone else..." i.e. Don't install this component in it's current incarnation. Edited December 17, 2019 by ithildurnew Quote Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, ithildurnew said: Unmodded BG... goes to 0. Does it ? Yes, this is the BG:TotSC one, probably patched to 5512, from default.bif; 2DA V1.0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MAGE 20 20 20 19 19 19 18 18 18 17 17 17 16 16 16 15 15 15 14 14 FIGHTER 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 CLERIC 20 20 20 18 18 18 16 16 16 14 14 14 12 12 12 10 10 10 8 8 THIEF 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 BARD 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 PALADIN 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 DRUID 20 20 20 18 18 18 16 16 16 14 14 14 12 12 12 10 10 10 8 8 RANGER 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 FIGHTER_MAGE 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 FIGHTER_CLERIC 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 FIGHTER_THIEF 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 MAGE_THIEF 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 CLERIC_MAGE 20 20 20 18 18 18 16 16 16 14 14 14 12 12 12 10 10 10 8 8 CLERIC_THIEF 20 20 19 18 18 18 16 16 16 14 14 14 12 12 12 10 10 10 8 8 FIGHTER_DRUID 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 FIGHTER_MAGE_CLERIC 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 CLERIC_RANGER 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 So that's a; NO! The zero in the above is the non-class default. Every class is at least at 1. Edited December 17, 2019 by Jarno Mikkola Quote Link to comment
ithildurnew Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said: Does it ? Assuming that BOTH the IESDP and Balursgate wiki didn't screw it up... it does. Level 21 is where unmodded THAC0 for warriors reaches zero. Note I typed 'BG/BG2/ToB' - BG1's 2da (not surprisingly) didn't go up past level 20. Unmodded Thac0 for priests, rogues, and wizards are also a tiny bit better than the PnP caps, which corresponds with Warriors going to zero. Bottom line, the current mod component version is an odd mish mash that doesn't fit the readme description or PnP rules, and penalizes Warrior classes while boosting everyone else, which seems to go against the spirit and ruleset of both PnP and CRPG. https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/THAC0#comm-38164 https://gibberlings3.github.io/iesdp/files/2da/2da_bgee/thac0.htm Edited December 18, 2019 by ithildurnew Quote Link to comment
CamDawg Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 This is well-spotted. I've updated the table so that the minimum THAC0 is now 0, not 1 to bring it in line with bogstandard BG2(EE). Quote Link to comment
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