Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Onox

Un-nerfed THAC0 Table only decreases THAC0 to 1 instead of 0

Recommended Posts

Hi,

I read that there used to be a PnP THAC0 table that let the base THAC0 go into negative values, but that there were problems with it [here] ; however, with the current tweak, THAC0 only decreases up to 1, whereas in the unmodded 2DA table provided with BG2:EE, it does go down to 0. This means that the tweak is actually a slight nerf for fighters and monks after level 20 ! Anyway, the tweak description, “THAC0 can now progress until it reaches zero instead of no longer improving once you hit level 20”, is wrong. (“once you hit level 20” is also inaccurate because in the original THAC0.2DA file, fighters get their THAC0 of 0 at level 21, and mages and shamans still get a decrease when they reach level 22.)

In the linked post above, Miloch had written he believed that a THAC0 value of 0 was still valid for the engine even though IESDP says 1-25, and I also think that’s true. Some creatures, like fire giants, have a base THAC0 of 0, too

So, shouldn’t this be changed ?

Edited by Onox

Share this post


Link to post

Curious about this as well; Thac0 should go down to zero as it does in vanilla/unmodded. Currently it stops at 1; the result is that the component is a slight nerf for warrior classes compared to vanilla, which surely isn't an intended effect, not to mention being completely out of line with the readme description.

Edited by ithildurnew

Share this post


Link to post
2DA V1.0
0
                        1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  48  49  50 
MAGE                    20  20  20  19  19  19  18  18  18  17  17  17  16  16  16  15  15  15  14  14  14  13  13  13  12  12  12  11  11  11  10  10  10  9   9   9   8   8   8   7   7   7   6   6   6   5   5   5   4   4  
FIGHTER                 20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11 -12
CLERIC                  20  20  19  18  18  17  16  16  15  14  14  13  12  12  11  10  10  9   8   8   7   6   6   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
THIEF                   20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11  10  10  9   9   8   8   7   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
BARD                    20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11  10  10  9   9   8   8   7   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
PALADIN                 20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
DRUID                   20  20  19  18  18  17  16  16  15  14  14  13  12  12  11  10  10  9   8   8   7   6   6   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
RANGER                  20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
FIGHTER_MAGE            20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
FIGHTER_CLERIC          20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
FIGHTER_THIEF           20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF      20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
MAGE_THIEF              20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11  10  10  9   9   8   8   7   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
CLERIC_MAGE             20  20  19  18  18  17  16  16  15  14  14  13  12  12  11  10  10  9   8   8   7   6   6   5   4   4   3   2   2   2   1   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
CLERIC_THIEF            20  20  19  18  18  17  16  16  15  14  14  13  12  12  11  10  10  9   8   8   7   6   6   5   4   4   3   2   2   2   1   1   1   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0  
FIGHTER_DRUID           20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
FIGHTER_MAGE_CLERIC     20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
CLERIC_RANGER           20  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11
MONK                    20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   2   1   1   0   0   -1  -1  -2  -2  -3  -3  -4  -4  -5  -5  -6  -6  -7  -7  -8  -8  -9  -9  -10 -10 -11 -11 -12
SORCERER                20  20  20  19  19  19  18  18  18  17  17  17  16  16  16  15  15  15  14  14  14  13  13  13  12  12  12  11  11  11  10  10  10  9   9   9   8   8   8   7   7   7   6   6   6   5   5   5   4   4  

Make a new .txt file, copy paste the above code in it, and use save_as "THAC0.2DA", yes, that removes the .txt extension, and then copy paste the resulting file into the game folders override folder... and in non-EE games you need to level up your characters. In EE's it might happen without the level up... might not, didn't check.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks but the issue isn't getting the 2da file fixed on my install, that's easy enough to do. I'm mostly wondering what's going on with this component, why it doesn't go down to zero, whether it's been confirmed that values below one or zero cause problems, etc.

 

[edit] Also, your version has progression for warrior classes not improving incrementally each level consistently; it improves every other level starting at level 16 for pure Fighters, 17 for other warrior classes, etc. I'm sure you have your reasons why but it's not consistent with either vanilla progression nor the un-nerfed table and is instead a custom/homebrew table. That's perfectly fine to do for your own installation certainly, just might want to warn people when offering it publicly. :) Cheers.

Edited by ithildurnew

Share this post


Link to post
24 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Doesn’t thac0 progression actually stop at 2 in PnP? For some reason that’s in my head...

Why would it ? No, just because it's called to hit armor class zero, doesn't mean that you can't have a critical failure if you roll 1 if your Thac0 is 1 or zero... it's an automatic failure, just like 20 is a critical hit even if it normally wouldn't hit, even with it, cause your Thac0 is <implicitly> that bad.

Share this post


Link to post

I don’t care about the ‘why’ or your dice-roll justifications. I just recall the PHB stopping at 2. For no particular reason. I’m asking if anyone has the PHB, is my recollection correct. 

Share this post


Link to post

https://www.purpleworm.org/rules/

According to this compilation of 2e rules (which includes the High Level Campaigns supplement content), Thac0 goes to 1 for warriors at level 20 (and apparently even at higher levels it's capped at 1).

Unmodded BG/BG2/ToB goes to 0.

Well known fact that the ruleset for BG2/ToB levels past 20 are kind of all over the place, very loosely based on 2e high level supplementary rules.

The description of this mod component indicates it goes to negative digits. Instead, it stops at 1 like PnP... for WARRIORS. Strangely enough, it does not follow 2e high level rules on Thac0 caps for non warrior classes (Priests are supposed to stop at 8, rogues 11, Wizards at 14 per the High Level Campaigns supplement)

Result: chaos and confusion, much gnashing of teeth.

Takeaway: the component needs to be renamed "RE-NERFED THAC0 tables to match PnP for Warriors but UN-NERFED for everyone else..."

i.e. Don't install this component in it's current incarnation.

Edited by ithildurnew

Share this post


Link to post
57 minutes ago, ithildurnew said:

Unmodded BG... goes to 0.

Does it ? 🧐 Yes, this is the BG:TotSC one, probably patched to 5512, from default.bif;

2DA V1.0
0
                        1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20
MAGE                    20  20  20  19  19  19  18  18  18  17  17  17  16  16  16  15  15  15  14  14
FIGHTER                 20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
CLERIC                  20  20  20  18  18  18  16  16  16  14  14  14  12  12  12  10  10  10  8   8
THIEF                   20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11
BARD                    20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11
PALADIN                 20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
DRUID                   20  20  20  18  18  18  16  16  16  14  14  14  12  12  12  10  10  10  8   8
RANGER                  20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
FIGHTER_MAGE            20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
FIGHTER_CLERIC          20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
FIGHTER_THIEF           20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF      20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
MAGE_THIEF              20  20  19  19  18  18  17  17  16  16  15  15  14  14  13  13  12  12  11  11
CLERIC_MAGE             20  20  20  18  18  18  16  16  16  14  14  14  12  12  12  10  10  10  8   8
CLERIC_THIEF            20  20  19  18  18  18  16  16  16  14  14  14  12  12  12  10  10  10  8   8
FIGHTER_DRUID           20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
FIGHTER_MAGE_CLERIC     20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1
CLERIC_RANGER           20  19  18  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  9   8   7   6   5   4   3   2   1

So that's a; NO! The zero in the above is the non-class default. Every class is at least at 1.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola

Share this post


Link to post
23 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Does it ? 🧐   

Assuming that BOTH the IESDP and Balursgate wiki didn't screw it up... it does.  Level 21 is where  unmodded THAC0 for warriors reaches zero. Note I typed 'BG/BG2/ToB' - BG1's 2da (not surprisingly) didn't go up past level 20. Unmodded Thac0 for priests, rogues, and wizards are also a tiny bit better than the PnP caps, which corresponds with Warriors going to zero.

Bottom line, the current mod component version is an odd mish mash that doesn't fit the readme description or PnP rules, and penalizes Warrior classes while boosting everyone else, which seems to go against the spirit and ruleset of both PnP and CRPG.

https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/THAC0#comm-38164

https://gibberlings3.github.io/iesdp/files/2da/2da_bgee/thac0.htm

Edited by ithildurnew

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...