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Which IR should I download


Arthas

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2 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I would think more than that.

Looking more closely, that is the number of .tpa files generated form inlined files by item_content.tpa. I guess that's not the entirety of what the mod copies over... it's just what was identified and used in my BG2EE game. In item_rev/itm/ there are about 1,100 .ITM resources. I never did a deep dive into exactly how IR does what it does, so I don't know which ones might be affected by 1PP.

There is a separate "1PP.tpa" files with some COPY commands and patches... I don't suppose it would be as easy as just updating this part of the mod, though. Else Demi probably would have done that a long time ago.

6 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I reverted all items back to their base vanilla appearance (to maintain compatibility with non-1pp/EE games), install those .itms, and then use a very long series of conditional patches that will update their appearance depending on what options were installed when the user installed 1pp

Do the items actually need to be reverted to vanilla?  What if your patches are applied to unreverted IR items?

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10 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Do the items actually need to be reverted to vanilla?  What if your patches are applied to unreverted IR items?

It would be a mess, since it assumes they're in the reverted form. It would basically be the equivalent of installing 1pp on top of IR right now, which is, as I recall, very strongly recommended against by the IR readme because of the problems it would create. I remember waaay back before I started IRR, I still did just that and then I would just manually correct the issues as I saw them in-game...obviously, you can't do that if you want to be able to reinstall (needs to be weidu-ized for re-installation!), though, which is the entire reason why I hijacked the entire IR install platform and started making corrections at the source, particularly because I didn't have any experience with weidu at the time anyways. Obviously, I've learned a bit since then, but I'm still nowhere even close to the same level as you or DavidW - I learn based on what I see other people do, :).

(e): Unless your mod looks like SCS and turns what is usually very easily readable code into...uh, not so easily readable code, :p.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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25 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

There is a separate "1PP.tpa" files with some COPY commands and patches... I don't suppose it would be as easy as just updating this part of the mod, though

Meant to respond to this: as I remember, what part of 1pp is in IR right now is like...a customized sub-section as chosen by Demi/Mike(?) that came from 1ppv2. The difference between 1ppv2 and 1ppv4 was massive, and even basic stuff like animation slots were changed, which is why if you install 1pp on top of IR, really bad stuff like...I want to say bucklers looking like large shields starts to happen (but don't quote me on that, because it's been a very long time since I played normal IR). Stuff must be reverted in order for the system to work, unfortunately, so that's exactly what I did. It's why I've been adamant that I cannot repeat any of what I did for base IR - it is too herculean an undertaking for me to even consider. And of course, I prefer all of my additional tweaks, changes, and additions anyways, so why would I even want to repeat the effort? If you like how IR is as it is right now, then there is no issue - if you're a crazy bastard like me or @Salk and this stuff matters to you, (e) then maybe (/e) IRR is your option, :).

Edited by Bartimaeus
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Anyways, I hope this is the last time we ever have this particular discussion again, because I believe it has been well and truly played out over the past few years. Perhaps the easiest way to resolve this entire situation would be to simply have a few people who hate the entire idea of IRR existing at all to actually play it and then point out all the things they hate that are different from the base version, then having me revert that stuff (or at least having a discussion about it) and then make the result of all that become the official version. That would be *much* easier for everyone involved, I think, and it's about the only way I can see this finally being put to rest. Until and if that ever happens (and it probably won't and I have to be honest, I'm pretty okay with that, especially since I do rather enjoy dictatorial power even given that I do try to listen to all feedback), I'll just keep truckin' along...

Edited by Bartimaeus
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2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

especially since I do rather enjoy dictatorial power

This is really my only issue your “...RR” things. I don’t hate it. You clearly have a good understanding of and appreciation for Demi’s mod... but then you want to exercise dictatorial control and claim ownership of the definitive, different version. And those things can’t coexist. If you want to help maintain the real version of IR, you need to either rein in your ability to change things at your own whim; or just separate those changes into a separate component. 

As far as the real IR... I know Mike said reverting to non-1PP visuals is a nonstarter, but TBH it seems like the only way forward to deal with newer versions of 1PP. If you have Weidu code to do this in IRR, then it could simply be a distinct, optional component of IR. IMHO it would still be Demi’s vision - just split into different components.

As far as how it could be done...

Unless I'm not perceiving this correctly (always a possibility!) the issue is that the IRR .itm files have desirable characteristics that help them to be compatible with 1PP; but they have an unspecified number of unapproved differences which should mostly be in the headers. So, very theoretically, maybe something could be coded that could... I don't know compare the two different folders full of .itm files, pull them out into code, and then put back together a set of .itm files that have the general file characteristics of the one set, and the header characteristics of the other set.

IRR files + IR headers + 1PP weidu code = (very theoretically!) a set of .itm files that solves this issue.  Maybe?

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

I had in mind 'input directory full of itms, output directory full of INCLUDE-able bits of weidu that turn the unmodded item into the directory item'.

Put differently, maybe this ^^ could take the base IR .itm files as the "unmodded source," and generate bits of weidu to convert them into IRR items. but in the execution, simply exclude the actual item effects.

Edited by subtledoctor
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Actually hang on... maybe I’m overthinking it. Tell me this: when you reverted the weapons to their non-1PP state, what did you actually revert? Like, was it just certain offsets in the .itm file? Which ones - 0x22, 0x3a, etc.? 

Can you give an example of a particular item that, like, embodies the changes you made from the base IR version? You mentioned Aegis Fang before, is that a good example? I can see the differences in those pictures you posted before, but I don’t have a clear understanding of what is different in the files themselves. (Also, is the picture of IRR an install of 1PPv4+IRR? Or just IRR?)

Edited by subtledoctor
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You can start with animations and icons. Aegis Fang would be a bad example, since its graphics are entirely my own creation and not from 1pp/the EEs at all (and there are a number of those mixed in with the other 1pp stuff, by the way - if you're thinking of just taking my IRR or SRR-specific resources wholesale to create your own after-the-fact patches, that's something you should probably beware and carefully consider) - look at shields and helms would be my suggestion, since they're generally the most trouble and the most glaring issues. I can't remember off-hand if there's any weapons that need their animations "fixed" (as opposed to simply changed to take benefit of 1pp/the EEs).

As for the rest of what you wrote...no, I am good. Mike was pretty adamant regarding his feelings on the matter regarding the specific issues I brought up however long ago, but he was also more than gracious to let me host IRR and SRR here, and that's literally all I ever asked for and it's happily what I received. At no point have I ever intended to "replace" the original mods - my entire preferred installation of method of forcing both of them to require the base packages (and thus forcing users to consciously realize what they're installing) should be proof enough of that. As I've said a number of times, I did not ever intend for them to even be public in the first place, they were originally simply personal projects to fix and change things as I saw fit, and it was only from the gentle suggestions of Salk that I changed my mind after I realized that some others were dissatisfied with the current state of things. With the help of many others' bug reports, feedback, ideas, suggestions...the scope of both IRR and SRR expanded greatly and are better than they would have ever been versus purely my own ideas and efforts, and so if the option is to "spend a lot of time and effort re-doing work on the base mods or spend that same time and effort continuing to work on what I believe to be current areas of interest to me and others", well...I mean, that's just a danged easy choice for me. If there are current users of either IRR and SRR that hate certain things I've done with them compared to how they are in the base mods, they should really speak up, because I haven't much heard them. I'll be happy to at least have a discussion about those things, as I always have and will always do - the IRR and SRR threads aren't both steadily approaching near a hundred pages long each for no reason, after all, even as tumultuous as they have been at times.

It is only because of exactly one particular user's repeated prodding of me to in someway resolve this situation over the years that this subject even keeps coming up. Contrary to what you might think, me saying "yep, I thought this was an issue too which is why I tried to improve it" to someone who is currently experiencing a problem or frustration is not an invitation for yet another complaint and argument on how you don't see why IRR or SRR exist in the first place or how you can't even see why someone might prefer them or...anything else, really. I mean, you can keep doing that, but eventually I'll run out of my own limited patience and stop engaging. So I'll repeat my suggestion from the other thread if that stance continues to gall you. Nobody's preventing you from working on your own PRs for SR to solve any issues in the official version that arise, and I'm always here if you want feedback or specifics on how I implemented something, or anything of that nature. I was planning on some of my own PRs once grodrigues finished his current work, but the more I'm forced to talk about this crap, the more I ask myself why I would even bother? I am good with where things stand, as I've said many times before, and I want to be done with talking about this ever again. And you are happy with IR and SR as they are right now - isn't that enough? They're not going anywhere: IRR and SRR are still the unofficial versions you have to already know about and seek out if you want to install them. Occasionally people mess up and post comments about them in their own threads instead of the IRR or SRR threads, but I try my best to handle them.

Edited by Bartimaeus
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Out of curiosity, I played. a bit. 

Here is an ini file listing all the cosmetic differences (icons, animation slots, opcodes 7-9) between baseline BG2EE 2-6 item files and the item files installed by the most recent release of IRR. (If I understood the above discussion, baseline BG2EE is basically ToB + 1PP, so this is basically Bartimaeus's cosmetic fixes to 1PP.)

And here is a library which (among other things) contains a function, cosmetic_implement_changes, which takes that ini file and applies the differences it lists to the in-game items. (It uses the 'alter_effect.tpa' library from SCS - in stratagems/lib - which needs to be INCLUDEd for it to work.) Use as follows (assuming obvious choices of where to put libraries and the ini file):

INCLUDE "%MOD_FOLDER%/lib/lib_cosmetic.tph"
INCLUDE "%MOD_FOLDER%/lib/alter_effect.tpa"
LAM cosmetic_data
LAF cosmetic_implement_changes STR_VAR ini="%MOD_FOLDER%/data/cosmetic_changes.ini" END

It doesn't copy over any icon files not present, it just edits the itm files themselves.

If it's useful, great; if not, no big deal.

(Not very tested. The only limitation I'm aware of is that for a few items (e.g.RODMACE) IRR (and IR for all I know) adds ability headers. Obviously I can't cosmetically patch nonexistent headers.)

cosmetic_changes.ini lib_cosmetic.tph

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1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

You can start with animations and icons. Aegis Fang would be a bad example, since its graphics are entirely my own creation and not from 1pp/the EEs at all (and there are a number of those mixed in with the other 1pp stuff, by the way - if you're thinking of just taking my IRR or SRR-specific resources wholesale to create your own after-the-fact patches, that's something you should probably beware and carefully consider) - look at shields and helms would be my suggestion, since they're generally the most trouble and the most glaring issues. I can't remember off-hand if there's any weapons that need their animations fixed.

I'll re-quote myself here, but also add something I had forgotten until just now: I have my own custom-selected colors for probably close to two hundred items(?) that do not match either 1pp or the EEs in addition to a number of custom icons that I myself made (and tweaks to existing icons) as well as other design choices/selections that I personally made. Presumably, you do not want those changes and would prefer the official 1pp/EE choices for everything: therefore, if you are making an after-the-fact patch to correct these issues, it would probably make the most sense to instead run DavidW's handy little comparison code there from the current official version of IR to the vanilla state of BG2:EE, and then just make whatever corrections that need be after you actually test out how it works in practice. Most things will probably work O.K. if you take that approach, at least for EE players. The original games would be a different matter, because making assumptions about what a player installs for 1pp would be dangerous...but if your concern is mainly the EEs to begin with, then you can just make it an EE-only patch that only power users could enable for the original games at their own risk.

@DavidW That is pretty cool! Thanks for including the code, :).

Edited by Bartimaeus
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15 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Sorry, I know I've mentioned this elsewhere but this seems like a good place to mention that, for now, I have a fork of Item Revisions which is basically IRv4b10, with a couple dozen fixes applied, addressing pretty much every bug I could find from scouring this forum for posts going back to ~2018.

Until the official version gets an update, and as long as it is okay with the G3 folks, I recommend using my fork (as of this writing, v4b10sd15 - that's the 15th iteration of my fork, which draws on the 10th beta iteration of the 4th version of the mod :blink: ). From this link, click the green "Code" button and then "Download ZIP" to download and install it.

Thanks for sharing this, subtledoctor. Do you plan to update this fork further? 

If yes, then I know that I may sound like a broken record, but is there a chance to add EE-style item descriptions for EE games? This would allow me to actually play IR. I can even prepare such descriptions for you, not a problem. I cannot update WeiDU code to correctly patch those descriptions for Revised Armors and Items components, though. It's far beyond my skills :(

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10 hours ago, Cahir said:

Do you plan to update this fork further?

Sure, if any bugs are identified and I have the chance to fix them. These changes also have pull requests in to the main branch (except perhaps the most recent one... have to check) so this is not meant to be a standalone version, but just a way for players to get bugfixes that would be easier than, say, installing base IR plus a bunch of hotfixes. My intent here is that, at some point my fork will become obsolete and will go away.

In the meantime, though, maybe we can use it as a place to test some experimental stuff. Like...

10 hours ago, Cahir said:

is there a chance to add EE-style item descriptions for EE games?

Uh... possibly?  Like I say I have never really gotten into the guts of IR's code. Glancing at it, it seems fairly complicated. Not SCS-complicated, but more complicated than most of my mods. But I have an idea of how we could maybe achieve what you want. I'll look into it and report back.

Edited by subtledoctor
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Ultimately I think that what Bartimaeus said makes the most sense. 

He'd need someone that played with both the original IR and the current IRR to point out possible issues or flaws in the latter. Or simply give a reason why one or more of the changes made in IRR aren't "right".

Personally I enjoyed discussing and brainstorming with Bartimaeus both here and in private tackling different aspects that we both felt needed improvements. I think IRR came a long way now and, despite what Bartimaeus himself says about his own attitude, I find him to be quite open to suggestions and capable of reverting some of his own changes if a valid argument is being made.

Edited by Salk
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1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Uh... possibly?  Like I say I have never really gotten into the guts of IR's code. Glancing at it, it seems fairly complicated. Not SCS-complicated, but more complicated than most of my mods. But I have an idea of how we could maybe achieve what you want. I'll look into it and report back.

I'll wait eagerly for the news, thanks for looking into it! I must say I lost hope there may be ever solution for this issue. 

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Okay so here's what I think we could do. Probably.

8 hours ago, Cahir said:

I can even prepare such descriptions for you, not a problem.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. But if you meant something like, you can rewrite /item_rev/languages/%lang%/ITEM_DESCRIPTIONS.TRA to better accord with the EE description style, and call the new version of the file "ITEM_DESCRIPTIONS_EE.TRA" (or whatever), then I think we can add an .ini option to let power users like yourself choose those descriptions at install time. I think this would not be against the spirit of the base mod, since the original descriptions would be default behavior.

I could certainly add it to my fork to test it out.

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19 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Meant to respond to this: as I remember, what part of 1pp is in IR right now is like...a customized sub-section as chosen by Demi/Mike(?) that came from 1ppv2. The difference between 1ppv2 and 1ppv4 was massive, and even basic stuff like animation slots were changed, which is why if you install 1pp on top of IR, really bad stuff like...I want to say bucklers looking like large shields starts to happen (but don't quote me on that, because it's been a very long time since I played normal IR). Stuff must be reverted in order for the system to work, unfortunately, so that's exactly what I did. It's why I've been adamant that I cannot repeat any of what I did for base IR - it is too herculean an undertaking for me to even consider. And of course, I prefer all of my additional tweaks, changes, and additions anyways, so why would I even want to repeat the effort? If you like how IR is as it is right now, then there is no issue - if you're a crazy bastard like me or @Salk and this stuff matters to you, (e) then maybe (/e) IRR is your option, :).

When 1pp was updated to v4.0.0, the question raised to provide a full IR compatibility. Unfortunately, it was abandoned mainly for 3 reasons:

  1. IR uses an older version of 1pp
  2. the existence of several versions of IR.
  3. IR is still officially a "beta" mod.

However, when I discovered @Bartimaeus had released many fixes that I have coded for 1PP,  we compared his list and mine, and after a few exchanges, I decided to include some I did not notice. The only ones I refused to include were cosmetic ones that did not respect what the author intended to do (even if I agreed with Bartimaeus and still don't like some Erephine's creative bias).

IMO, any mod that needs to use another mod content should require the former mod to be installed first and check for its installation. Crossmods are a good example of this practice. It is nonsense to ask modders or maintainers to make their mods compatible with a mod being installed after. ;)

That said, all items content mods I have updated at SHS are patching items in two ways: one for the vanilla original games, another for EE or 1PP modded games. And as I know some players don't respect the installation order, I even added pieces of codes in 1PP to patch a few mods items that would be installed prior to 1PP. And believe me, that was painful.

 

The same issue will arise with Infinity Animations. Fortunately, most mega mods that need it were released at SHS and will be updated at the same.

 

Edited by Gwendolyne
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