Spell Descriptions and Other Documentation

[Mike1072]

Nicely spotted, but:

Quote

Spell descriptions last updated for SRv4b18 

Any typos fixed after v4b18's release won't show up in the online documentation until after v4b19 is completed and the documentation is refreshed to match.

[janoha]

I realize this is unlikely to happen, but would you consider also adding an overview of Spell Revisions Revised to this? That would be very much appreciated!

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, janoha said:

I realize this is unlikely to happen, but would you consider also adding an overview of Spell Revisions Revised to this? That would be very much appreciated!

That would be my responsibility in the SRR thread, not anybody else's anywhere else, .

[janoha]

@Bartimaeus yes fair point. I just thought it would be a really great resource to have.

[Endarire]

@Mike1072
Holy word and unholy word:  Does this apply only to enemies?  What happens to LN/TN/CN creatures?

These spells also have a typo of "effec" instead of "effect."

[Mike1072]

4 hours ago, Endarire said:

@Mike1072
Holy word and unholy word:  Does this apply only to enemies?  What happens to LN/TN/CN creatures?

They apply only to enemies and do not take alignment into consideration.

4 hours ago, Endarire said:

These spells also have a typo of "effec" instead of "effect."

Thanks, fixed locally.

[Endarire]

@Mike1072
Clarify unholy word and holy word targeting in your next release.

Can cure and heal spells be cast on Undead enemies?  If so, are they hurt by them?  (D&D 3.x made it so Undead were harmed by cure spells and positive energy and healed by inflict spells and negative energy.)

Ether Gate:
Friendly creatures can lower their magic resistance so that the shaman can target them with this spell.

This should be changed to "caster" since casters besides Shamans can use it.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Endarire

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Endarire said:

@Mike1072
Clarify unholy word and holy word targeting in your next release.

Can cure and heal spells be cast on Undead enemies?  If so, are they hurt by them?  (D&D 3.x made it so Undead were harmed by cure spells and positive energy and healed by inflict spells and negative energy.)

Ether Gate:
Friendly creatures can lower their magic resistance so that the shaman can target them with this spell.

This should be changed to "caster" since casters besides Shamans can use it.

This reminds me that I actually kind of wanted to make Cure spells hurt undead and Cause Wounds spells heal them...but then I realized that it would be kind of unfair, since Cure Spells don't need an attack while the Cause Wounds spells do. Probably why it's not a thing.

Ether Gate is not managed by SR.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Endarire]

@Bartimaeus
(Happy new avatar that doesn't look like a neon yellow Psyduck from Pokemon!)

You could change it so that if cure and heal spells are used on Undead, they use the normal accuracy/save rules.

[Mike1072]

17 hours ago, Endarire said:

@Mike1072
Clarify unholy word and holy word targeting in your next release.

If you're referring to alignment, I don't think that part of the description is ambiguous.  It specifies enemies.

I did notice some other wording in the description I wanted to update to make the effects clearer.  Here's a preview.

Quote

Uttering a Holy Word channels magic of tremendous power. Nearby enemies suffer the following effects, dependent on their level:

Target's Hit Dice -- Effects of Holy Word
Equal to caster level -- Deafness for 1 turn
Less than caster level -- Blindness for 5 rounds
Less than caster level by at least 5 -- Stun for 1 round
Less than caster level by at least 10 -- Death

The effects are cumulative and concurrent.

 

[subtledoctor]

I assume you mean "equal to or greater?" The deafness works on enemies of a higher level, right?

EDIT - this also reminds me that I don't like SR's Holy Word and I need to add it to my Random Tweaks mod as well.

Edited June 10, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

8 hours ago, Endarire said:

@Bartimaeus
(Happy new avatar that doesn't look like a neon yellow Psyduck from Pokemon!)

You could change it so that if cure and heal spells are used on Undead, they use the normal accuracy/save rules.

lmao @ psyduck, it was a character called Yellow Pearl

Spoiler

Can't roll for THAC0 with spellcasting, but you could just make it subject to the normal saving and let it be a special exception against undead, who get dunked on by other spells as it is anyways.

This is how I rewrote Un/Holy Word in SRR so it made sense and also none of the lines spilled to a second line:

Target's Hit Dice - Effects of Holy Word
 All enemies - Deafness for 1 turn
 Less than caster - Blindness for 5 rounds
 5 less than caster - Stun for 1 round
 10 less than caster - Death

I think I also experimented with signs (<, >, =), but it looked terrible which is why I tried to devise a different format.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Mike1072]

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I assume you mean "equal to or greater?" The deafness works on enemies of a higher level, right?

You're right, the deafness affects all enemies regardless of level. The description should be corrected.

The SR effects and description were modelled on the 3rd edition Holy Word, where deafness does not affect enemies above the caster's level.  I'm guessing it was changed in SR to make the spell not suck so much.

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

This is how I rewrote Un/Holy Word in SRR so it made sense and also none of the lines spilled to a second line:

Target's Hit Dice - Effects of Holy Word
 All enemies - Deafness for 1 turn
 Less than caster - Blindness for 5 rounds
 5 less than caster - Stun for 1 round
 10 less than caster - Death

I think I also experimented with signs (<, >, =), but it looked terrible which is why I tried to devise a different format.

I started with a similar format (why use lot word when few word do trick?) but eventually settled on mine after struggling with trying to more effectively convey that the effects are cumulative.  I'm not sure that either description makes that easy to follow, but the problem might just be that the behaviour itself is out-of-place among other spells in the game.

[Endarire]

@Mike1072
(Un)Holy Word Spells
The simplest way to handle the cumulative effects of word spells is just to list everything on each entry.  For example, if used on a creature with 5 HD less than the caster's caster level, the subject is assumedly Deafened for 1 turn (10 rounds), Blinded for 5 rounds, and Stunned for 1 round.

Do these spells ignore spell resistance?

Power Word Spells:
Do these ignore spell resistance?

Animal Summoning I:
Bats have 1 hit die each.  (Dice is the plural for die.)

The animal summoning series shouldn't use the term "level of Druid casting the spell" since non-Druids can cast it.  (The caster's caster level is truly what determines the effects of these summons.)  The same goes for other summoning spells, like Call Woodland Beings.

Shapechange:
Greater Wolfwere is immune to weapons of lower than +1.  Spirit Trolls are immune to nonmagical weapons.  What's the difference for Infinity Engine purposes?

Iron Golems are immune to magic, but are they also immune to mental effects like Charm and Dominate and Confusion?

This spell text says "wizard" but non-Wizards can cast it too!

Protection from Energy and Protection from the Elements
Going by the documentation alone, the level 7 version seem to do the same thing, but the level 7 version (protection from the elements) casts faster and lasts longer (5 rounds per level instead of 2 rounds per level).  This seems wrong.

Spell Durations and Caster Level-Dependent Effects:
Do caster levels of 21+ matter?  For example, if I'm a Wizard50, would a 1 round per caster level spell last 50 rounds (5 turns)?  Do dispel magic and holy word and other spells with CL-dependent effects and no obvious upper CL limit truly have no CL cap?

Nitpicking:
I know I've been picky about certain "minor" terms, but I want things to be accurate.  Not everyone who's playing with this mod entirely knows that certain descriptive terms are functionally interchangeable.

Rules Q:
Does 2e D&D distinguish between called and summoned creatures?  D&D 3.x and PF1 do.  Called creatures are truly there:  They can be killed for EXP.  Summoned creatures are 'photocopies' of creatures and can't be killed for EXP.

I ask since renaming the summon spells as summon spells and the calling spells as calling spells is something done for better consistency.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Endarire

[Bartimaeus]

Magic Resistance: If it doesn't mention ignoring spell resistance, it should be assumed that it doesn't. If it does and it's not mentioned, then it's an error.

"Druid"/"Wizard"/"Cleric"/Whatever: These are used as generic catch-alls for arcane, divine, and natural spellcasters, not necessarily strictly indicative of their class. The only time it would be truly inappropriate is if "cleric" or "druid" is used for a spell that's usable by both clerics and druids.

Un/Holy Words: That'd be a disaster to list out, and it'd spill to secondary lines and look horrible.

Protection from Energy/The Elements: Magic damage is also immunized against in the 8th level spell.

Spell Durations: In non-Revised SR, both durations and effects max out at 20. In SRR, durations are extended up towards 50 (not necessarily always strictly at 50, but usually in the 40-50 area depending on its original length).

Conjuration Spells: I don't think anybody's going to be renaming classic BG spells on the basis of "calling" vs "summoning". BG is not P&P, and change for the sake of change is not usually appropriate.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Bartimaeus