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Why is everyone quitting beamdog forums?

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16 minutes ago, StummvonBordwehr said:

@KilivitzIf speaking up for the Beamdog forums is really so upsetting then I won’t. I have failed to notice that I wasn’t allowed here. People come here for answers and I’d reckon I was more than welcome to chip in.
 

.Yes I have expressed my point of view, and will take that liberty in the future as well. Being positive is not a major offence as I see it, and expressing a positive attitude is not ganging up on anybody imho. If it is so here, I will quickly take my leave.
 

And btw. I haven’t flagged a post over there for negative or flaming remarks - although I did it twice for the ones who made the double accounts. If that is a major insult, then I -‘ sorry, but I really don’t like people who make multiple accounts on forums.

I don't think you should stop arguing your opinions, but being correct in your defensive attitude, depends on what the context of the original problem was.

In this case before the posts were deleted and the thread locked I saw Tresset(a mod) write a rather sanctimonious post about ''complainers never being happy and how the eventually the company would stop patching the games because of that'' Which was followed by a post from what looked like a slightly ticked off subtledoctor. He probably realised his mistake and corrected that..Though I'm somewhat puzzled why the entire thread has just disappeared in the first place, since it contained information regarding Beamdogs somewhat unlucky  thing with that tax credit removal. Which from what I understood was an understandable and bitter setback for the company.

But either case my problem is more how the community culture over there responds to criticism.. and it's been that way for years. Most of the common arguments made by the most passionate fanboys(and let's be honest, that's what they are) seem to involve:

''you people complain about everything''

''you should be happy you are still getting patches at all!''

And those people have just gotten worse lately...So my problem stems from the general immaturity of some users there and their awful response to legitimate criticism.

batoor

Edited by Lanky

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59 minutes ago, Lanky said:

I don't think you should stop arguing your opinions, but being correct in your defensive attitude, depends on what the context of the original problem was.

In this case before the posts were deleted and the thread locked I saw Tresset(a mod) write a rather sanctimonious post about ''complainers never being happy and how the eventually the company would stop patching the games because of that'' Which was followed by a post from what looked like a slightly ticked off subtledoctor. He probably realised his mistake and corrected that..Though I'm somewhat puzzled why the entire thread has just disappeared in the first place, since it contained information regarding Beamdogs somewhat unlucky  thing with that tax credit removal. Which from what I understood was an understandable and bitter setback for the company.

But either case my problem is more how the community culture over there responds to criticism.. and it's been that way years. Most of the common arguments made by the most passionate fanboys(and let's be honest, that's what they are) seem to involve ''you people complain about everything''

''you should be happy you are still getting patches at all!''

And those people have just gotten worse lately...So my problem stems from the general immaturity of some users there and their awful response to legitimate criticism.

batoor

Thank you.

I have addressed the moderator issue in prior posts. And I didn’t motion the thread being closed (I actually agreed with Subtledoctor on a special treatment for the the iOS versions) I just didn’t see anything before things heated up and the thread was closed. 

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1 hour ago, StummvonBordwehr said:

I have failed to notice that I wasn’t allowed here.

I didn't say you weren't allowed in here, did I? No, I wouldn't say that - this is not my forum. And if it was, I still wouldn't say that, because I'm not a Beamdog moderator (zing!)

1 hour ago, StummvonBordwehr said:

I have expressed my point of view, and will take that liberty in the future as well. Being positive is not a major offence as I see it, and expressing a positive attitude is not ganging up on anybody imho.

Express your views all you want, then. I don't think this should be an echo chamber... like the Beamdog Forums (double zing!)

However, since Julius and his posse haven't got your back in here, expect me to call you out on what you claim to be simply "expressing a positive attitude". To me, it reads more like making excuses for their behavior. And what I meant by "ganging up" is that not only you show up to defend them on every thread (even outside the forums, apparently) but also make sure to hit like or agree on every post in which they attack someone. Basically, you're the guy watching people get beaten, screaming "yeah, hit 'em some more!" and then trying to convince them that it's really their fault they got beaten in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Lanky said:

I saw Tresset(a mod) write a rather sanctimonious post about ''complainers never being happy and how the eventually the company would stop patching the games because of that''

Yeah! That's when he/she called us "nasty little spiders". Apparently, the reason why patches take so long is because our negative comments demotivate the devs. It's actually flattering how much power he/she thinks we have over the studio.

Edited by Kilivitz

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I've hesitated to participate in this thread because I didn't want to get into a long argument, but I do have to speak up at least once. As one of the Beamdog moderators, I own our decisions and I realize there's going to be pushback from those who disagree with our policies.

But StummvonBordwehr isn't a moderator at the Beamdog forums. He's just a regular user like everyone else, and he's done nothing but express his opinions. We were the ones who made those decisions; not him.

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it’s ok Semiticgod. People may call me what they want, and say their piece about my actions and motives. It is their choice - not mine.

But I am glad that it is confirmed that this is not an echo chamber. It may be that I like the BD Kool-Aid too much, but I actually like the forums, I did part take in the discussion (and not part of any Kool-Aid gang) and still do. 
 

And yes I fully stand by that I support the site rules there. And yes I fully support that discussions need a helping hand sometimes - by forumites most of all, but also from moderators. And yes I have pressed agree and like on that a lot. But I haven’t pressed agree or like on any personal attack. There is the difference. If any think I am cyber bully, please state so - I just don’t think that thinking in a different way adheres to bullying.

And just for the record. I didn’t follow all of the ex forumites to haunt them here. I came for the mods - like so many else I’d reckon.

Edited by StummvonBordwehr

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5 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

And what I meant by "ganging up" is that not only you show up to defend them on every thread (even outside the forums, apparently) but also make sure to hit like or agree on every post in which they attack someone. Basically, you're the guy watching people get beaten, screaming "yeah, hit 'em some more!" and then trying to convince them that it's really their fault they got beaten in the first place.

This is really not the impression I have from @StummvonBordwehr at all. He(?) might be more apologetic with BeamDog's moderation style, but it comes out of a positive and optimistic world view that tries to see the reasons behind someone's behavior.

EDIT: In other words, if you talk about the "ganging up" at BeamDog's, I don't think StummvonBordwehr is the right one to be hit for it just because he is present in this discussion.

I would be happy this thread would not turn into personal discussions (and especially insults) with forum members.

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5 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

Yeah! That's when he/she called us "nasty little spiders". Apparently, the reason why patches take so long is because our negative comments demotivate the devs. It's actually flattering how much power he/she thinks we have over the studio.

That's right.  I had forgotten Tresset's phrasing.  I don't think "sanctimonious" is really an accurate description of his post... more like blatant, nasty, flaming.

I actually ignored his insulting tone and language and wrote a whole post responding to Tresset's substantive point.  What happened?  The moderators deleted my post even though it was civil and complied with site rules, and left Tresset's post up.  That was a slap in the face, and wrong even by their own stated standards.  I was naturally pissed about that, and I wrote a post asking why a disagreeing-but-polite post got deleted, while Tresset's "obnoxious screed" got a pass.  Then, even though my post was accurate - Tresset's post was totally obnoxious! - I decided to remove my post.  It was in the heat of the moment, after all, and didn't advance the conversation in a productive way.  Best to do the right thing, right?

Wrong.  It didn't matter.  They called my accurate, briefly-existing description of his post a "personal attack" against him.  Which, a) is a mischaracterization on its face, and b) doesn't take into account that Tresset's insults and the moderators rudeness to my posts were what triggered my response.  Nope, I get treated to 3 paragraphs of some supercilious shit telling me I'm a bad person, and I need to clean up my act.  Did they acknowledge Tresset's misbehavior - that his flaming was probably the flashpoint that set off the whole little drama?  Was there an acknowledgment or - God forbid - an apology for any rudeness done to me?  Were there any consequences for Tresset?  No.  Just a shitty little lecture. 

It's a minor thing, but it's fucked up.  How are you going to do someone wrong, and then wag your finger at them and demand an apology from them for complaining about it?  What kind of person does that?  And more to the point, as I said before: why would anyone voluntarily submit themselves to such shitty treatment?  Fuck that, man.  Fuck that right out.

EDIT - as for @StummvonBordwehr, I think he generally means well and just wants everyone to get along and sing Kumbaya.  However, I don;t think he is sensitive to the fact that when a person feels wronged, StummvonBordwehr's posts can come across as an attempt to invalidate that person's experience.  Which is a shitty thing to do.  I don't think he means to do that, but he should probably try to be a bit more careful about it, if he is really interested in not pissing people off.

Edited by subtledoctor

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4 hours ago, semiticgod said:

there's going to be pushback from those who disagree with our policies

I guess I shouldn't post, but what the heck. Thank you for joining the discussion @semiticgod. Thing is, I can accept policies if they are stated clearly (I can decide not to post in a forum again if it has forum policies I do not agree to).

I cannot, however, deal with forum policies that I receive as arbitrary, and I cannot deal with the accusations of having done "personal attacks" in a statement that does not even address a specific person but states a description and evaluation of a situation I witnessed. I posted two posts (out of three) that were deleted and punished because of "criticizing moderation publicly" (and "personal attacks" on top) which I posted out of the intention to mediate, be helpful, and help BeamDog's improving the overall experience of players (in this case in their forum).

Since then I cannot wrap my head around the question: next time if I post a bug report for the actual games, which is something I did before. How would I know this is not counted with exactly the same punishment? You punished (and, on top ridiculed me for) my helpful-intentioned criticizm, so how should I know where you gonna stop? Aren't modifications in themself a huge critique to the games? Will I get banned because I tell BeamDog what they did wrong i.e. report a game bug? Or because I show them what I would like to be different i.e. did an SoD Tweakpack that lets you skip Korlasz's dungeon and keep Imoen in the group? And if not, why not? What's the diffrence?

So, since you mentioned them, please tell me in short, so I can understand what happened to me: what are BeamDog forums policies justifiying banning one modder after the other for what they write in the forums, and leaving moderators in their place for exactly the same behavior? I am not trolling, this is a serious question. Because I can't find an explanation for what I saw happening (what happened to me) at BeamDog's that comes to a solution where friendly and helpful persons like you @semiticgod fit into the equation.

EDIT: I can only repeat that this is a serious question, and it drives me nuts. I am glad I could phrase it. But the saddest thing is that I could never post something like this at BeamDog's, because with the same logic as in the past, this would violate rules 10, and 6.

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Thanks for your posts Subtledoctor and Jastey.

I - admittedly - try to get a Kumbaya feeling going. I freely admit to that.
I do try do be respectful, and I have noted that there are strong sentiments on the subject. So I shall heed your words Subtledoctor, and be careful. 
 

And I do think I have had my say. This thread was meant as a valid question, to which there are different answers/views. I can live with that, and I hope everybody else can.

I will be at the Secret of Bonehill thread - hoping for a bug and Roxanne free version  of this excellent mod.

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32 minutes ago, jastey said:

what are BeamDog forums policies

On second throught, disregard my question. I don't see any outcome with a reply from you ( @semiticgod) where this wouldn't spiral into a heated discussion with no real result.

I wanted to phrase my thoughts and am happy I can do so here. Maybe they'll give a new point of view to someone.

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@jastey: Right now I need to go to bed, but I think it's perfectly possible to talk about the issue without it being a really heated thing. It really depends on how we approach the issue.

If I did participate, I should get something out of the way first: although this is a different website, I still feel bound by the same policies that bind moderators over at the Beamdog forums, and I have to follow certain rules. Warnings at the Beamdog forums are confidential, and while bans are always inherently public, we don't really publicize the triggering events. That would come off as petty and gossipy, and the last thing anybody wants is for moderators to go around badmouthing users across the community and saying "John did X and this is why he's wrong." I can discuss moderator philosophy and trends in a discussion, but we wouldn't be doing a close textual analysis of John's posts to try to prove that he was bad.

At any rate, it's a sensitive subject and so I've been hesitant to approach it. It's possible to discuss these issues without it spiraling out of control, but just because something could happen doesn't mean it will.

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44 minutes ago, semiticgod said:

we wouldn't be doing a close textual analysis of John's posts to try to prove that he was bad.

Just to make this clear: nowhere in my post I was asking for such a thing. I already got moderation's view on what they think I wrote in the deleted posts, and I replied here (and there) that I can't see it, so there is no need of repeating that as this would lead us nowhere. I was asking for the bigger picture and a certain "instruction manual" for BeamDog's forums, and just maybe a reason why forum rules (EDIT: or, to be more precise what moderation does with them) do not seem to apply to moderators themselves because that really triggers my sense of fairness.

But really, @semiticgod please do not feel urged into writing anything. I don't want you to be dragged into what I see is a doomed battle where you take all the heat just because you are the one BeamDog moderator being here.

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Maybe I am prone to overinterpretation, but I think a lot of what you call the fanboy culture over at beamdog is due to the experience of SoD. The wholesale assault on the entire game because of one silly character (negative GoG review flood; youtube drama etc) makes me somewhat sympathetic to an overzealous desire to shield beamdog from any and all criticism. That certainly isn't productive behaviour, but maybe it can help us all remember that we really are in this together. Beamdogs games wouldn't sell nearly as well without the active modding community, and as @subtledoctor pointed out, for us old guard a glorified mod is actually precisely what we want, so we have an interest in the company doing well and are probably more than happy to throw money at them.

Edited by Isewein

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The rules do apply to Beamdog moderators. But sometimes folks want to know if a moderator got disciplined for a specific comment, and we don't do that for regular users, either. Probably our most common complaint is, "I got warned for arguing with Bill; why wasn't Bill warned?" Bill might actually have been warned, but because warnings are confidential, we don't confirm or deny it. That applies even if Bill is a moderator.

The drawback to confidentiality is that it can create the impression of unfairness, because the information itself is unbalanced. If John and Bill get into an argument, John will know if he received a warning, but he doesn't know if Bill was treated the same, so he suspects unfairness.

That's the cost we have to bear. User confidentiality is more important to us than our own reputation. I'd prefer to keep both, but we have to set priorities.

For what it's worth, two moderators have been removed from the team in the past. One of them was later banned for repeating the same behavior. Even for comments that aren't rulebreaking, we're still subject to censure from the other moderators. I can confirm that I've been subject to that process once before (I promised to improve and I haven't heard the complaint since then).

This doesn't address every point that's been discussed in this thread--and I haven't listed the reasons we place so much importance on confidentiality--but I think posting a long treatise would come off as a lecture, so I've tried to focus on just one question.

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