Unearthed Arcana presents Faiths & Powers: Gods of the Realms

[subtledoctor]

Okay I've made a rough sketch of how I would change paladin Champion kits. Basically they would each get about two special abilities, and the ability to adopt one or more of the three archetypes for more abilities. Some of the special abilities would specifically work with the archetype abilities... e.g. a Stormward of Talos could choose the Defender archetype and do bonus electric damage with the Smite ability, or choose the Zealot archetype and do bonus electric damage when frenzying.

Quote

Paladin of Tyr:
- permanent ProEvil on self
- bonus vs. evil when smite
defender, inquisitor

Knight of the Golden Lion (Torm)
- innate ProEvil 10'
- weapon mastery...?
defender, inquisitor

Everwatch Knight (Helm)
- true sight
- everwatch sword
- awareness (+1 AC, +2 view distance)
defender, inquisitor

Companion of the Noble Heart (Ilmater)
- damage resistance
- heal allies when frenzy...?
defender, zealot

Gloryblod of Tempus
- allies berserk when frenzy...?
zealot only

Knight of the Eternal Order (Kelemvor)
- Turn bonus
- immune to hold & level drain
- bonus vs. undead when smite
defender, inquisitor

Harvester of Myrkul
- Turn bonus
- immune to hold & level drain
- bonus vs. undead when frenzy
inquisitor, zealot

Knight of the Black Gauntlet (Bane)
- innate Horror
- on-hit fear when frenzy
zealot only

Knight of the Red Falcon
- weapon mastery
- innate Confusion...?
defender, inquisitor, zealot

Stormward of Talos
- elec resistance
- elec damage when frenzying
- elec damage when smite
defender, zealot

Disciple of the Flame (Kossuth)
- fire resistance
- focus access fire
- fire shield when frenzy
zealot only

Child of Blood (Garagos)
- +STR when frenzy
zealot only

Cherub of the Ruby Rose (Sune)
- passionate resonance  (AoE Charm)
defender, inquisitor, zealot

Knight of the Mystic Fire
- Spell Thrust @1, Pierce Magic @6, 12, 18
- smite casts Breach
- frenzy imposes casting failure chance
defender, zealot

Inquisitor of Azuth
- immune to charm
- Spell Thrust @1, Pierce Magic @6, 12, 18
inquisitor only

Darksong Knight (Eilistraee)
- +3 thac0/damage vs. fiends
- innate bolt of glory
defender, zealot

Eye of Gruumsh
- innate Slow?
- see invisible when frenzy
inquisitor, zealot

Hammer of Moradin
- stoneskin
- moradin's hammer
defender only

Vassal of Corellon
- +2 with swords and bows...?
- Mord's Sword when frenzy...?
zealot only

Truesword of Arvoreen
- Mazzy strength innate
- Mazzy haste innate
defender only

That's 20 kits, or about 40 if you count the different combinations of kit+archetype. Should be enough?

Edited October 13, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Mordekaie]

On 10/13/2022 at 4:59 PM, subtledoctor said:

Why do I feel like it does? Or did? Maybe something happened and it's not working? I'll take a look.

Part of the difficulty with paladins is that there isn't source material to work from. With clerics it's easy: grab the 2E AD&D books, check out the specialty priest of each deity, and write it up as a kit in the BG style. While other mods (ahem) might vaguely imply they are special for being based on the PnP material, the fact is that Faiths & Powers is thoroughly devoted to the source material and most of the contents here is pulled straight from the AD&D books. Literally every cleric kit description I've written here is paraphrased or copied verbatim from the original sources.

But there are no 2E paladins of different deities. Paladins were a very singular type of class - LG heavy knights - and the AD&D paladin kits are largely just glosses on a character's background and social position. 3E had Divine Champions of different alignments and for all different deities, and so these are the broad inspiration for FnP paladin kits; but they give precious little guidance for actual  implementation in this game engine. While making cleric kits is a simple matter of translating sourcebook stats into Weidu code, paladin kits need to be created out of whole cloth, with a lot of discretionary decisions that players may or not like. That's why there are fewer paladin kits than cleric kits.

(There is also the bigger question of really what role paladins serve when we have kitted fighter/clerics to serve in the role of divine warriors... we considered for a while whether we shouldn't remove paladins and let the multiclass serve in that role - and I still think that is something to consider.  But ultimately, the game contains both classes and players expect that, so we put in paladin kits even though the conceptual overlap is substantial.)

Anyway that's a lot  of rambling. If we are going to merge paladins and zealots and uses these archetypes instead, it will result in a lot of apparent paladin options in the mod. But it will involve a lot of work in re-shaping all the  existing kits.  While I'm doing that, it should be easy enough to write something up for Torm.

Just to share my opinion about the Paladins (from my P&P point of view) and to open the perspectives.

There are some aspects of the Paladin class that make that class so particular and which are not or uncorrectly implemented/adapted in the Baldur's Gate games :

• Bonded mount : When the Paladin reaches certain levels, he will attract and developp a special bond with a mount, almost acting as an NPC/party company. It could be a Giant eagle, Unicorn, War horse, Pegasus...This aspect could be rendered when outside by a charge bonus, a mouvement bonus, or even a 7 party member evolving with the paladin that the Paladin can call anytime.
• Possessions and ressources : In my souvenir the Paladin has only few possessions BUT he can get access to ressources that would help him fullfill his missions like a small troop, finances ... Among other classes, he also attracts followers which can join him ... Maybe he is not as skilled as a fighter but he is more than a warrior : He is a war leader; never underestimate a lone Paladin not because of his fighting skills but because he will come back with ressources.
• Holy sword (A holy sword is a special type of consecrated weapon that provides a paladin with unique benefits) : I consider this aspect to be quite poorly implemented with Carsomyr. In my opinion Carsomyr could be just one already consecrated weapon; one direction would be to give the possibility to a Paladin to consecrate a weapon with special abilities depending on the deity he is serving and working like an upgrade ?).

Nb : i apologize for my english as this is not my native language.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Mordekaie

[subtledoctor]

i agree with all of that. Frankly it's a weird class. I know we make great use of the EE2.0+ ability to mod FALLEN.2da to liberalize the paladin class and allow neutral and evil paladins, but I guess there is something to be said for just keeping them as a special LG knight, and restrict them to followers of e.g. Tyr/Torm/Helm/Ilmater. It would certainly firm up the concept. And other deities can just have fighter/cleric kits, which are already in the mod anyway.

But... the engine lets us liberalize this thing, I feel it is almost a duty to follow through with mods that capitalize on that new capability.

I suppose would could split it up: have a basic component that installs paladin kits for only a few Lawful deities, and then add a second optional component allowing players to add Champions of a bunch of other deities. Why not...? Have to see how @Grammarsalad feels about it.

...

Neither here nor there but as I look at the .tpa code here, more and more I feel like I want to just rip the ranger kits right out of this mod. I know rangers can cast druid spells but they don't really feel like a "divine" class to me, not the same way clerics/paladins/druids/shamans do. Maybe simplify things here and move the ranger kits over to Might and Guile (where half of them already exist anyway)

[Grammarsalad]

On 10/14/2022 at 11:11 AM, Mordekaie said:

Bonded mount : When the Paladin reaches certain levels, he will attract and developp a special bond with a mount, almost acting as an NPC/party company. It could be a Giant eagle, Unicorn, War horse, Pegasus...This aspect could be rendered when outside by a charge bonus, a mouvement bonus, or even a 7 party member evolving with the paladin that the Paladin can call anytime.

That's cool. I could see something like this being a part of the paladin stronghold.

On 10/14/2022 at 11:11 AM, Mordekaie said:

Possessions and ressources : In my souvenir the Paladin has only few possessions BUT he can get access to ressources that would help him fullfill his missions like a small troop, finances ... Among other classes, he also attracts followers which can join him ... Maybe he is not as skilled as a fighter but he is more than a warrior : He is a war leader; never underestimate a lone Paladin not because of his fighting skills but because he will come back with ressources.

A follower/mercenary mod where you could actually hire or attract helpers would be cool...

 

On 10/14/2022 at 11:11 AM, Mordekaie said:

Holy sword (A holy sword is a special type of consecrated weapon that provides a paladin with unique benefits) : I consider this aspect to be quite poorly implemented with Carsomyr. In my opinion Carsomyr could be just one already consecrated weapon; one direction would be to give the possibility to a Paladin to consecrate a weapon with special abilities depending on the deity he is serving and working like an upgrade ?).

 

Oohh, this is my favorite idea of the bunch. It's exactly up my alley as I'm working on some code that could probably be used to do something like this

 

[Grammarsalad]

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I suppose would could split it up: have a basic component that installs paladin kits for only a few Lawful deities, and then add a second optional component allowing players to add Champions of a bunch of other deities. Why not...? Have to see how @Grammarsalad feels about it.

Love it!

 

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Neither here nor there but as I look at the .tpa code here, more and more I feel like I want to just rip the ranger kits right out of this mod. I know rangers can cast druid spells but they don't really feel like a "divine" class to me, not the same way clerics/paladins/druids/shamans do. Maybe simplify things here and move the ranger kits over to Might and Guile (where half of them already exist anyway)

Makes sense if that is what you think is best. Maybe rangers are best handled in might & guile. 

[Quester]

In my recent game I found the 2nd lvl divine spell Spider Swarm to be a little too strong. I think it's from FnP?

Jaheira was casting this every battle and it made the early encounters *much* easier to handle. The spiders it summons are super quick and seem to nearly always hit, and for decent damage too.

At its current power level I feel like it should be a 3rd lvl spell or perhaps even 4th. If you want it as 2nd lvl I think it needs a slight nerf.

[subtledoctor]

15 hours ago, Quester said:

In my recent game I found the 2nd lvl divine spell Spider Swarm to be a little too strong

If by “a little too strong” you mean “wildly, almost offensively overpowered” then yes I agree, I had the same experience in my current game. I want the spell to remain at 2nd level, since it is supposed to fill out the opportunities for Hivekeepers to summon - at higher spell levels you can summon large beetles, giant spiders, carrion crawlers, plus Insect Swarm etc. 

So I am currently working on toning down the spell. Basically the little spiders will get worse thac0, do less damage, and have a smaller chance to inflict poison. I quite like how they move fast and swarm - they make a really nice distraction, which is kind of the point of the spell. Imagine someone summoned six aggressive giant huntsman spiders at your feet - you would probably take a round or two to deal with that!

Edited October 17, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Quester]

16 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

If by “a little too strong” you mean “wildly, almost offensively overpowered” then yes I agree, I had the same experience in my current game.

Hehe, I didn't want to sound too critical. I admit to being something of a noob since I haven't played the game in forever so I can't always determine if/how overpowered something is compared to what else is in the game. It was a very useful spell to have, let's put it that way. 

[Endarire]

Does fire shield block the effects of such swarms?

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Endarire said:

Does fire shield block the effects of such swarms?

No,  but these are 1 HD or 1/2 HD creatures... they can attack someone with Fire Shield but the fire will kill them. Bigger issue is, depending on your mod list, they can poison casters through Stoneskin or Mirror Image. That's part of what makes them OP.

Edited October 17, 2022 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

I'm also considering redesigning the Frenzy ability a bit, in order to distinguish it from Berserkers' Rage? Something like:

• +1 APR
• +2 to damage
• Immunity to Sleep, Slow, Confusion, Maze, and level drain.
• lasts 5 rounds

Zealots are innately immune to charm and fear, so those are already covered. So the differences are 1) no immunity to hold, stun, or imprisonment effects; and 2) no to-hit or AC bonuses (I try not to mix these with +APR bonuses because the combination becomes greater than the sum of its parts).  So in a frenzy you hit faster, and you hit harder, and you brush off effects that would slow you down or calm you down.  But it's not a crazy blanket immunity to everything.

I've had some fun ideas for frenzies, too. Zealots of Talos could do extra lightning damage, which is kind of boring (maybe switch that to like 1-second  staccato Stun effects?) but Zealots of Gruumsh can dispel invisibility while frenzying. Zealots of Bane inflict fear with every hit (you're the god of tyranny, you have your thugs use fear to keep the populace in line). Zealots of Corellon Larethian manifest an extra blade to fight alongside them à la Mord's Sword! As I slowly get around to implementing these new class abilities, I am having fun ideas like this. This kind of stuff should fix the problem of "paladins are just worse fighters until level X."

Edited October 18, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Dan_P]

@subtledoctor,  I had a question about mod compatibility. So I already figured out how to give kits compatibility with the sphere system.

 

My question is with your instructions in the "other_mods" folder. When I first tried to add compatibility, it wasn't working. This is the relevant section I was following (the "EASY WAY"):

Spoiler

//DEFINE SPHERE ACCESS______________________________________________________________
//
INCLUDE ~%MOD_FOLDER%/lib/fnp_compatibility.tpa~
ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~fnp_sphere_list.tpa~) BEGIN
  INCLUDE ~override/fnp_sphere_list.tpa~
  LAF ~DEFINE_FNP_KIT_INFO~
    STR_VAR
      clab_name     = ~[clab file]~
      class         = ~cleric~
      sphere_list     = ~[deity]_spheres~
  END
  LAM ~READ_FNP_KIT_INFO~
  ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5_spheres.d5~ BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_spheres STR_VAR clab_name = ~[clab file]~ END
  END
  ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5_fnp_usability.d5~ BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_usability STR_VAR clab_name = ~[clab file]~ END
  END
END
//__________________________________________________________________________________

The reason it wasn't adding the spheres is because d5_spheres.d5 doesn't get added by FnP (neither does d5_fnp_usability.d5). Removing that condition (i.e. just running the LAF apply_fnp_spheres) adds the correct spheres, based on the sphere_list variable.

Note that running the apply_fnp_usability function this way doesn't work right (maybe it needs d5_fnp_usability.d5?).

 

This is what I'm using in my mod that works. It's the same thing, but without the check for d5_spheres.d5, and without the usability function because I'm not using it anyways:

Spoiler

//DEFINE SPHERE ACCESS______________________________________________________________
//
INCLUDE ~%MOD_FOLDER%/lib/fnp_compatibility.tpa~
ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~fnp_sphere_list.tpa~) BEGIN
  INCLUDE ~override/fnp_sphere_list.tpa~
  LAF ~DEFINE_FNP_KIT_INFO~
    STR_VAR
      clab_name     = ~%kitid%~
      class         = ~%fnpclass%~
      sphere_list   = ~%fnpdeity%~
  END
  LAM ~READ_FNP_KIT_INFO~
  LAF apply_fnp_spheres STR_VAR clab_name = ~%kitid%~ END
END
//__________________________________________________________________________________

 

So my question, is the d5_spheres.d5 needed for anything? The spheres seem to work without it. The correct spheres get added to the kits, as long as the kit mod's installed after FnP.

[subtledoctor]

58 minutes ago, Dan_P said:

question about mod compatibility

Sorry - I think I see the issue, at some point I changed all my marker file names from using "d5_" to using "d5__" (two underscores). To distinguish them more easily from actual functional files. But in that FnP compatibility stuff I didn't change it. If you add a second underscore there ("d5__spheres.d5" and "d5__fnp_usability.d5") then it should work.

58 minutes ago, Dan_P said:

So my question, is the d5_spheres.d5 needed for anything? The spheres seem to work without it.

Yes, I'm sure they work if you already have the FnP sphere system installed. But this is designed to also work if you install your mod before FnP. In that case the sphere system hasn't been chosen, so you shouldn't run the apply_spheres function. Basically it  should work in either of these ways:

• Install your kit, define its sphere access in the relevant .2da files, and wait for FnP to be installed later (or not); if the player installs FnP later then FnP will read the data your mod  left behind, and apply it in the sphere system
• Install FnP, apply the sphere system to all existing kits; if the player installs your mod later then it will run this compatibility function to extend the sphere system to encompass your kit.

For that to work, your mod needs to know whether a sphere system has been installed already. So it checks for the marker file.

Like I say, adding the second underscore  will fix it. If an example would be helpful, you can see how I've done compatibility myself in Might and Guile.

...

Reading this makes me realize that there is a problem here: at some point I added the ability to have different sphere systems; and I added the ability for kits to be assigned sphere access in groups that are defined with each sphere system. So you can make a cleric of a battle deity and rather than specifying  spheres, just tell the function "give me whatever spheres Tempus has access to" and it will give your kit the Tempus spheres, even though those might be different in different sphere systems. BUT, this might not work if the sphere system hasn't already been installed - the choice of sphere system determines which spheres Tempus has, and so your kit can't filled out the relevant .2da table with those spheres before the sphere system has been chosen!

...Unless I already accounted for that? It's possible. The code is fairly opaque at this level. I need to go in and make sure you could choose spheres that way and it will work both before and after FnP is installed. Which is no small order. But I'm preparing a major update to the mod anyway, so I'll add this to the 'to-do' list.

Edited October 20, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Dan_P]

I'm still looking into it, but I tested it out with the extra underscores and still no marker files. I copy pasted the names of the .d5 files from the Might and Guile mod:

  LAM ~READ_FNP_KIT_INFO~
  ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5__spheres.d5~) BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_spheres STR_VAR clab_name = ~%kitid%~ END
  END
  ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5__fnp_usability.d5~) BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_usability STR_VAR clab_name = ~%kitid%~ END
  END

When the mod's installed before FnP, the kits just get the generic spheres for the class.

[Dan_P]

I figured it out by looking again at your Might and Guile file. The ACTION_IF and INCLUDE for fnp_sphere_list.tpa needed to be removed since that file hasn't been installed by FnP yet. This works for installing my mod before FnP:

Spoiler

//DEFINE SPHERE ACCESS______________________________________________________________
//
//ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~fnp_sphere_list.tpa~) BEGIN
//INCLUDE ~override/fnp_sphere_list.tpa~
  LAF ~DEFINE_FNP_KIT_INFO~
    STR_VAR
      clab_name     = ~%kitid%~
      class         = ~%fnpclass%~
      sphere_list   = ~%fnpdeity%~
  END

  LAM ~READ_FNP_KIT_INFO~
  ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5__spheres.d5~) BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_spheres STR_VAR clab_name = ~%kitid%~ END
  END
  ACTION_IF (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~d5__fnp_usability.d5~) BEGIN
    LAF apply_fnp_usability STR_VAR clab_name = ~%kitid%~ END
  END

  COPY_EXISTING ~%kitid%.2DA~  ~override~
    PRETTY_PRINT_2DA
  BUT_ONLY
//END
//__________________________________________________________________________________

I'm guessing it needs to have this block for installing before FnP and a separate part, checking for fnp_sphere_list.tpa,  for installing after.