Unearthed Arcana presents Faiths & Powers: Gods of the Realms

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, Jumbletuff said:

given you easily did an install with your current playthrough

Well, I didn't use PI. I see the conflict here, because the current release version of FnP (0.84) says to install it before WtP, and WtP says to install it after FnP. No problem there. But the pre-release version of FnP (0.85) says to install it afterward. Which is correct - but WtP's instructions have not been changed because the new version of FnP is not yet official.

Can you really not override that sort of thing in PI? (Tagging @AL|EN since, while here the problem is fairly intentional, I could see a possibility of something like this happening by mistake.)

Easy fix anyway, just go into the Will to Power mod folder, open Will_to_Power.ini in a text editor and delete the "After=..." line.

[Jumbletuff]

10 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Can you really not override that sort of thing in PI?

It's definitely possible and I just missed it. Just now got time to try it again; will update here if so. 

That said I get the impression from the original thread on dynamic installs that allowing users to force/override installation metadata goes counter to the point of it. Alien would know better though.

Appreciate the input.

[Graion Dilach]

Overriding is possible via disabling one mod, generating out the install order and copying it out to an external file, regenerating the install order with the other mod, merging the two in the external file and the Ctrl-A Ctrl-C Ctrl-V the merged install order on top of the autogenerated one.

As long as their respective mods are detected, PI will bypass checkboxes and validation for a directly-copypasted component list. These days I have my install orders in such external files and I just start PI up, let it detect the mods then throw the whole list in, without even touching the checkboxes outright (and I only touch those if I have new mod /component/s to install).

It is against the point of dynamic orders though and generally not recommended for newbies. This is an expert feature and should be treated as such, whichh is why it's underdocumented and that's the correct method.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Graion Dilach

[subtledoctor]

16 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

It is against the point of dynamic orders though and generally not recommended for newbies. This is an expert feature and should be treated as such, whichh is why it's underdocumented and that's the correct method.

In this case the fix is easy because both mods are under one person's control, but I can envision a situation arising in which the fix won't be easy. Because two mods disagree and/or the authors are not available to fix the metadata.

But I guess it's purely hypothetical, to be sure, so maybe it's not worth worrying about...

[AL|EN]

As Graion Dilach said, nothing more to add.

@subtledoctor For WtP and F&P, best thing to do for this particular case is to create pre-release version of WtP, which will take into account changes in pre-release F&P as they eventually become final.

[subtledoctor]

2 minutes ago, AL|EN said:

For WtP and F&P, best thing to do for this particular case is to create pre-release version of WtP

Even easier, I simply removed that metadata from WtP. So the metadata from FnP will control, and regardless whether you use the old or new version of FnP, in each case its metadata is correct.

[Jumbletuff]

14 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

Overriding is possible via disabling one mod, generating out the install order and copying it out to an external file, regenerating the install order with the other mod, merging the two in the external file and the Ctrl-A Ctrl-C Ctrl-V the merged install order on top of the autogenerated one.

As long as their respective mods are detected, PI will bypass checkboxes and validation for a directly-copypasted component list. These days I have my install orders in such external files and I just start PI up, let it detect the mods then throw the whole list in, without even touching the checkboxes outright (and I only touch those if I have new mod /component/s to install).

It is against the point of dynamic orders though and generally not recommended for newbies. This is an expert feature and should be treated as such, whichh is why it's underdocumented and that's the correct method.

Yeah, I thought I did this before. Turns out I left both of the mods clicked on the left bar, so it was still causing issues. That plus the ini change fixed the issue either way. Don't necessarily agree with the idea of under-documentation in general, though I understand where you're coming from especially as a mod author. Appreciate y'all being available for questions like this.

[Graion Dilach]

14 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

In this case the fix is easy because both mods are under one person's control, but I can envision a situation arising in which the fix won't be easy. Because two mods disagree and/or the authors are not available to fix the metadata.

Even those can be fixed with component-specific metadata entries. See IWDification; explicitly https://github.com/Gibberlings3/iwdification/pull/22/files for an example.

People just need to be mindful and specify only hard dependencies/conflicts alone.

[subtledoctor]

13 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

Even those can be fixed with component-specific metadata entries. See IWDification; explicitly https://github.com/Gibberlings3/iwdification/pull/22/files for an example.

People just need to be mindful and specify only hard dependencies/conflicts alone.

Well the point of it is not just to identify dependencies, but to kind of crowdsource install ordering via modders themselves, right? So a given modder will put references to other mods in their metadata - other mods that this modder does not control.

So I can spin out a hypothetical: right now Refinements HLAs should be installed after RR HLAs to get the most out of both mods, because RR overwrites HLA tables and Refinements v4 patches them. Now, what if someone comes out of the woodwork and takes the reins of Rogue Rebalancing, modernizing the code and making changes that want to persist at the end of an install, so they design the revamped version of RR to be installed last. They will naturally put in the metadata "install this after Refinements HLAs." But Refinements would still have the old metadata - now wrong - saying "install this after Rogue Rebalancing HLAs."

In such a case, it seems like there would be no solution here. The player would have to go rooting around in the mods' files to change the metadata, and some player may not be equipped to do that. Seems to me, a mod manager operating at a level removed from the mods themselves should be able to handle this, by showing the conflict to the player and giving them a choice of how to proceed.

Again, totally hypothetical and rather unlikely. But certainly possible.

[AL|EN]

While such situation is certainly possible, the key point here is that we have active modder who understand dependences for both mods, so he made the change. I'm sure that there will be a away for him to update the other mod to account for changes either directly by mod author or hosting site maintainer. If not, manual install or ini edit will do the job.

Direct (as opposite to simply showing one install order rule at the time) detection of "circular dependency" by mod manager is possible but given that it only occurred once, it has low priority.

[subtledoctor]

Update to version 0.85sd18 with a new version of Use Magical Device that is now a consistent portable function shared across several mods. Now clerics of Mystra, Azuth, Oghma, Deneir, and Urdlen can cast spells from arcane scrolls - and those of Mystra and Azuth can use wands as well.

[LordofBones]

Why Urdlen, specifically? The mole god isn't especially connected to arcane magic and knowledge. A cursory glance at his entry in Demihuman Deities shows that his bloodstalkers have no special arcane magic bonus. 

Talos and/or Shar, who've sponsored arcane magical orders and have made attempts at claiming a portion of the magic portfolio, would be more appropriate.

[Connelly]

In my BG2 install with the nuFnP sphere system, Jaheira with her Fighter/Forest Druid kit only has the first three cure wounds spells (light, moderate, medium). Looking at the sphere spell list I assume this isn't intended? Comparing with Aerie in the same party, who still has serious, critical, and heal.

[subtledoctor]

3 minutes ago, Connelly said:

I assume this isn't intended?

It actually is. Druids only get minor access to the 'All' sphere which has the healing spells. Clerics are the healing specialists! Druids get major access to the sphere of Vigor, which gives you regeneration spell(s) instead of instant curing spells. (Notably, if you install Spell Revisions, you get regeneration spells at 4th/5th/6th level.)

[Connelly]

D'oh! I did read about the regen vs straight heal, I just didn't remember at the time I noticed the lack of the spells and got afraid I did an oopsie with the install. Though then again, I'm not using SR as I understand it doesn't mix well with the MiH spells. That explains why I don't have any regen spells except Regeneration (which Aerie, being a Fastpaw with the Vigor sphere, also has, contributing to the confusion). Kinda defeats the point of the thing...