CPU Discussions (Split from SCS v32: installation times)

[Guest The_sextein]

Honestly, I'm a big fan of SCS and the Baldur's Gate mod community but I have always resided on other boards.  I recently got banned from Beamdog's forums because I don't back down when I am correct.  Stubborn sure, but a fact is a fact.  The point I was trying to get at was that the fastest single threaded chip is a multi core 8/16 Intel chip at the moment.  That means if a game uses 1 thread or 16 it will still run the fastest on the I9 9900K.  It has the fastest IPC and on board memory cache with the highest core clock while having 8 hyperthreaded cores.  Many games use 8 cores and some of them use up to 16 threads but even old games will run faster because no single core or quad core chips run at the same clock speeds or on as advanced of a node as the latest and greatest 14nm++ from Intel at the moment.  With DDR4 3600Mhz RAM you will not run into a system RAM limitation.  I've overclocked mine to 4000Mhz and the difference is nothing to write home about.  Clocks are about to hit a wall and the future is in clusters, IE multithreading.

It is beneficial to move up to newer tech but games will be built for consoles and then ported to the PC so you won't see more core support than the 8 core chip in the new PS5.  That means for the next 5 years games will not utilize more than that in any significant way unless it's a PC exclusive with a massive budget (which doesn't make business sense these days) New chips will be required for quality gameplay in the coming years.  This should be common sense.  In terms of Baldur's Gate....yeah it's an old game and I could get a steady and flawless maxed out  frame rate on my old computer from the 90's. Freaking cell phones can run this old game.   Install times for SCS do see a nice improvement on the latest chips but it is a shame that Weidu can't support multi threading since the average joe has at least 4 cores these days and even with the improved install times they are still a tad lengthy.  I respect Jarno and his contributions to the mod community but he is wrong on this topic.

 

I will consider signing up for an account as I do like to discuss mods and sometimes the gameplay itself from these old classics.  I noticed a bunch of refugees from other Baldur's Gate communities have collected here over the years.  

[Jarno Mikkola]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:05 AM, Guest The_sextein said:

With DDR4 3600Mhz RAM you will not run into a system RAM limitation.  ... Clocks are about to hit a wall and the future is in clusters, IE multithreading.

Yeah, I know the future is about multi-thread performance... but is the past really about that ? As in, if the processor is asked to read the .cre file, it's instructed to retrieve at most 2kb's of data in most cases. Now yes... the faster it does this is nice... but the RAM has other restrictions than it's clock speed and maximum size. Yes, the game fits today on your RAM, but it's useless there as the computer is not instructed to READ it into there, or use it in any capacity. As the game used caching of all things, to compensate the lack of RAM and inaccessibility of ROM data. Yes, we are talking about the difference of 500- 1000 sizes. Today you can have 64Gbs as your RAM, at those days you had 64 Mbs.

Remember the days when (1950-60's,) the memory was made physically, RAM has come a long way, and it size has changed dramatically.

Yeah, it might be nice to have a 64 bit multi thread performance miracle as the installer doing it's magic, but that's kinda hard to program, either for or onto, as the individual commands need to be prioritized and commanded a lot differently, is at least the assumption here.

Also notice that you used "IE", which is here, noted to be Infinity Engine, the game engine, not the: "id est"... latin is a dead language. Or at least do it the correct way and use the "i.e." ..but you still might get incorrectly understood. You might as well just use the term "in other words", if that is you intent. And be a less of a snob.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[Guest The_sextein]

No the past is not about multi threaded performance and like I said, the new multi core chips are faster at single core instructions so it doesn't matter.  Faster on die cache that is way larger with faster clock rates and higher IPC architecture.  If you want to name a single core or quad core chip that can outperform the 8 core I9 9900K at single threaded performance then please show it because I know it's not true.  Old games may not benefit from faster chips because they are already maxed out on old chips but that obviously has no place in a conversation about a mod installer that is faster with higher clock speed and a more advanced CPU architecture. The system RAM is not limiting the CPU once it passes 3200Mhz on AMD chips and 3600Mhz on Intel chips so I don't know what you are getting at.  I can clock my Ram down a 1Ghz and it won't effect the installation time or performance of Baldur's Gate.  Above 3600Mhz and even modern games that utilize 10Gb of video RAM and 12Gb of system RAM show no real improvement at 4Ghz or faster RAM speeds because they all run into CPU or GPU limitation first.

 

You brought up gaming and it's lack of a need for more than 4 cores.  That was false and the proof is there for anyone to see.  I used the abbreviation IE because I knew you would get it.  You didn't need to waste a paragraph acting like a snob about an abbreviation that I used.  Let it go dude, it's over.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2 hours ago, Guest The_sextein said:

, so I don't know what you are getting at.

The bit about the UMA & NUMA in this video. "and you are going to take a performance hit in either case." And then there's Linus's correct conclusion that "if your best sales pitch for a super premium product, is that your system doesn't take a performance hit" ... you will want to have a use case to compensate the cost. While gaming is not it.

Now, I have a good-ish computer(~2017), and I'll wait for a few years still for the replacement products that will not be cheaper, but might perform a bit better in a future use case. When it has a use.

2 hours ago, Guest The_sextein said:

I can clock my Ram down a 1Ghz and it won't effect the installation time or performance of Baldur's Gate. 

Yeah, this is because the system is clocking something else as the limitation cap anyways. It doesn't really need RAM. Well other than say 64Mbs to take a number from a hat, and there's plenty of those around. Even with 4 times slower control speed.

So to conclude, as the weidu 64 bit version still uses the same single thread process it has always used, to read in-game data to a hexa edit it and copy the files to a folder where the game will then use that data after it requests it. The weidu.exe is also a command line utility, so like DOS, That's to say that, it's tech can be seen as previous to Windows.

There's really no way to make the install process that much faster no matter what kind of super computer you get your hands on. Or program the weidu.exe a new to somehow to be able to take a  full advantage of multi-thread features, or even 2 core/threads. But that would need a recode of the mods too.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Jarno Mikkola

[Guest The_sextein]

When you upgrade you will be baying a chip with faster core clocks and more cores.  It will be faster at everything it does, just like the I9 9900K is now.  Linus is talking about a difference in the approach from two companies.  AMD had an architecture that was way behind in terms of IPC and as a result, having more cores didn't mean anything.  Even now with the same IPC they still get beat in many video games because they have inferior clock frequencies. 

I don't know how many different ways I can word it.  The I9 9900K is the fastest architecture Intel has ever made and it is utilizing the fastest clock speeds and IPC ever.  It is literally the fastest single thread chip ever produced in the server market or on the mainstream market.

This is why Linus tech tips isn't always a good source because it allows people who don't have a point of reference to think they are computer informed when you are clearly far from it.

As to your point about Baldur's Gate.  It's an old game that didn't need more than the RAM that was available in the year 1997 to run at the game at the maximum of 60FPS.  More RAM that is faster with lower cas latency is not going to help it because it's not RAM limited and never was.  It's also not CPU limited on anything beyond a Pentium 3 even at 4K resolution.  Baldur's Gate is limited by it's own game engine.  If you had said that it's pointless to buy new hardware in regards to Baldur's Gate rather than gaming in general then I would have agreed because a cell phone is enough to push Baldur's Gate.

That being said, when it comes to level loads and install times you can get increases from the hard drive speed and the CPU speed.  The Enhanced edition has it's code improved to the point where level loads are instant but the CPU will still give an advantage and in  the case where you have a 40 minute install time on a mod installer....every bit helps.  Getting rid of the waiting time by splitting the load onto multiple threads would help but if it's too much work to incorporate then I guess that's that.

[Guest The_sextein]

Also when I mentioned that AMD's 16 core chips get beat by Intel's 8 core chips it should have clued you in to the fact that I am aware that some games do not benefit from cores after a certain amount.   Many games have 4-8 threads and will not benefit from further cores.  Hyperthreading can also cause slow down in games but even so, the latest chips are fast enough to still outperform the previous generation and you could always temporarily disable hyperthreading in the bios if you really needed the extra speed for a specific game.  If you look at gamernexus videos on youtube and watch a modern CPU review, you will see how the frame rate differences stack up on chips from 4 core to 16 core and the effects the hyperthreading can have on gameplay.

[Guest The_sextein]

10 hours ago, Arthas said:

What happened on Beamdog? 

I was being led on by some users and a couple moderators who were playing a passive aggressive mind game with users who were openly complaining about Beamdog's progress on the Baldur's Gate 2.6 patch.  The moderation team said that I had a history of problematic behavior and used it as a reason to silence me.  The truth is that I had been on their website for a decade and had accumulated two previous warnings.  In both cases, the trolls I was arguing with were banned and I was given a warning.  Obviously over time everyone will receive accumulated warnings that will result in a ban.  Given a long enough time scale everyone will be banned eventually. 

Their angle is that everyone should instantly stop standing up for themselves and contact a moderator immediately if someone has a differing opinion that could cause a heated argument.  The problem is that moderators themselves are breaking the rules or nudging users around until they break the rules.  I stand up for my views and I don't run off crying to the moderators if someone disagrees with me or talks to me in what I consider to be normal argumentive behavior.  Take this thread for instance, Me and Jarno  would have been banned over this argument on the Beamdog forums for calling each other snobs. It would be considered insulting to another forum member and against the rules.  I never once tried to follow the rules while I was there because I don't naturally post bad things but a fact is a fact and if someone gets mad and calls me names, that is fine with me I'm not a little kid and I don't feel bullied and need a safe space every time someone disagrees with me.  I don't partake in crybaby threads where people discuss how bad their lives are or the ignorant politics of the time.  For that reason I generally avoid problems but every once in a while someone would get mad when I logically proved them wrong and they would throw a tantrum.  AT that point the moderators would come in and give us both warnings or in my case it turned into a ban when I took a firm stance against a moderator that was stretching the truth to calm down legitimate complaints over Beamdog's complete lack of effort to fix the game that they had broken (path finding) and what seems like to me, a complete lack of competency as a company regarding the status of their games and patching cycle.

[Guest The_sextein]

To be completely honest I was a touch rude to the moderator and I have no problems being rude to people who stretch the truth to win arguments.  In fact I was holding back a lot of negativity at that time.  Over the course of 12 years I would say 80% of my comments were positive regarding the games and Beamdog as a whole.  I stood up for them even though they have always been extremely slow and the improvements to the game were minor at best.  19% of my comments were argumentive but totally neutral or even positive despite a difference in opinion.  I would often go out of my way to make ridiculous analogies that would back aggression down behind the scenes.  1% of my comments were negative towards people who I feel deserved it.  I don't regret anything I said over there.  Even my negative opinions were warranted looking back at it.  Being rude to people is part of the life experience and while I agree that it's the job of a moderation team to keep it to a minimum I also think they view things like a robot that sees nothing but statistics.  You would have to be a simple minded robot with no strong opinions of your own to stay there without being banned.