What would people like to see?

[ithildurnew]

ToB could indeed use some more interesting content beyond Wheels and Reunion; it's surprising how little content storywise there is for it.

Regarding the old argument 'party should take it's sweet time to gear up to the nth degree to prep for trip to Spellhold', sorry, there's a point where I just don't buy it because it becomes outright ridiculous. There's a degree of planning and preparation, gearing up, etc. that's sensible and wise... after all you just lost a boatload of equipment to Irenicus and saw a glimpse of his power. Then there's just procrastinating/ignoring the plight of a friend or companion to finish the other quests so you get your grubby hands on more and more loot and xp. That might make sense from a powergaming/metagamed standpoint, but at a certain point it becomes a ridiculously lame excuse (unless someone is intentionally RP cautious cowards or someone who just isn't all that concerned about Immy).

I mean, by the time you finish a mere 2 or 3 Ch 2 quests you usually end up with a mountain of coin (more than the vanilla game requires to advance to ch3) and have a boatload of treasure/magic items... yet there's still so much content left to explore. Storywise it just doesn't make sense to keep putting off the rescue for a lot of characters... heck, how does CHARMAIN even know that there are 4, 5 other major quests that will yield Belm or Celestial Fury or similar? They might turn out to be duds or distractions with no substantial payoff (this is one of the reasons I like Item Randomizer) - precious time lost while a friend is locked up and who knows what is being done to her. 

'Hey, I've got tons of money and good gear now, but if I linger a couple more months and take more jobs I'll be better prepared and have more stuff that'll make life easier'... It's metagaming at it's finest and makes little sense in character, unless you are in fact portraying a character that may not care much about Imoen, has procrastination issues/is actually afraid to go after Jon, etc. At some point that makes more sense than months of 'preparation' which is really thinly disguised (self) preservation or a desire to 'get all the goodies in the game' (which is fine in a game, just don't pretend it's something else).  People who claim doing all/nearly all the quests in Ch2 is just 'being prepared' for Spellhold - don't get jobs as firemen or police, etc. - which is fine, most of us are not real life adventurers or heroes - but please don't try to sell me that metagaming risk aversion or gaming the system is in-character 'preparation'.

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[Shin]

 

18 minutes ago, ithildurnew said:

Regarding the old argument 'party should take it's sweet time to gear up to the nth degree to prep for trip to Spellhold', sorry, there's a point where I just don't buy it because it becomes outright ridiculous.

...

'Hey, I've got tons of money and good gear now, but if I linger and take on several more jobs I'll be better prepared and have more stuff that'll make life easier' is metagaming at it's finest and makes little sense in character, unless you are in fact portraying a character that doesn't really give a crap about Imoen or has procrastination issues/is actually afraid to go after Jon. That's motivation that makes more sense than 'preparation'.  People who really try to justify delaying the trip until they complete just about every quest in ch2. in the name of 'preparation' - I'll say this, I wouldn't count on them to come through for me in a sticky situation, or work in any kind of a profession where lives are on the line in a risky situation... which is fine, most of us are not real life adventurers or heroes - just don't try to sell me that metagaming risk aversion is 'preparation'.

The thing is that it isn't necessarily risk aversion, or powergaming for that matter. Anyone who knows enough about the game to meticulously collect every useful item around Athkatla in all likelihood also knows enough to do an undergeared solo trip through Spellhold as soon as they raise 15k gold. It's not that difficult. Some people just prefer the story to flow one way or the other, and come up with their own RP reasons for it and add mods that support it -- the macguffin you mentioned. If you prefer to explore in chapter 2 and 3 you might come up with reasons why it takes a long time to gather intel and resources and remove obstacles to get to Brynnlaw, and if you prefer to explore in chapter 6 you come up with reasons for why getting your soul back becomes a more complicated process. I don't even see why it should be controversial: a lot of games impose a sense of urgency while having something of a disjunction between the critical, narrative path and the less critical content you're free to go through at your leisure.

[ithildurnew]

7 minutes ago, Shin said:

... a lot of games impose a sense of urgency while having something of a disjunction between the critical, narrative path and the less critical content you're free to go through at your leisure.

But that's the problem; there is no actual sense of urgency in SoA because it makes absolutely no difference whether you take 2 weeks or 2 years to go to Spellhold. The game is built this way. People play it and pretty quickly realize this, and pretty soon it becomes more about 'collect as much goodies as you can, level up, take your time and enjoy the scenery, get to Spellhold when good and ready' rather than 'there's an urgency to rescuing this character' or 'there's an urgency to getting our souls back'.

What I would love to see (whether my mod idea pulls it off or not is debatable) is an actual sense of urgency with consequences in both ch. 2 and 6.

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[subtledoctor]

There are really two issues: 1) the 'OMG I can't sleep knowing Imoen is imprisoned!' thing, and 2) the 'Imnesvale, hm, sounds interesting, I think I'll go learn about its history' thing.  I think the urgency to rescue Imoen is adequately addressed by the "Imoen is Stone" mod - she may be in the clutches of unfamiliar powers, but they seem more or less lawful, and as a statue she won't even notice what's going on.  So it's okay to gear up and take the time to make a good plan.

A Macguffin mod would handle the 2nd issue: tying the motivation to do side-quests and gallivant around the countryside a bit more closely to the motivation to do the main quest.  Of course the player wants to do both, and of course the player wants to get the most XP and loot for Charname.  But within the story itself, it would be nice to bring those two parts of the game more into alignment.

[Shin]

1 minute ago, ithildurnew said:

But that's the problem; there is no actual sense of urgency in SoA because it makes absolutely no difference whether you take 2 weeks or 2 years to go to Spellhold.

Fair enough, though a strictly narrative sense of urgency is also common; far from every game uses actual time limits, and far from all players enjoy having them. Hell, even the few present in some of the stronghold quests have resulted in annoyance over the years as players unwittingly lose their ranger status, etc.

That said, I don't oppose a mod that implements penalties -- just stating that lingering in chapter 2 and 3 can be at least as roleplay-based as hurrying along.

[ithildurnew]

@subtledoctorI've had Imoen is Stone mod installed on quite a few runs as well. Anything that helps alleviate the status quo related to SoA's handling of Imoen is an improvement imo.

Eventually I felt that it wasn't enough (which is why I was initially very enthused about ImoenForever - Jastey perhaps felt similarly enough to put forth another way to deal with 'the Imoen problem'). Being petrified might be less painful/less suffering for the subject (though this isn't necessarily canon) - it still doesn't address the issue of CHARMAIN quickly accumulating more than enough funds to pay for passage plus having heaps of fancy equipment only a week or two after arriving in Amn (I've hit the SCS modded 40,000gp mark on Day 6 once or twice). At that point, what's the character thinking when he goes to bed at night, assuming he placed value on Imoen as a companion? He has more than enough coin, tons of expensive magical equipment, a solid party of powerful adventurers that's been kicking ass and taking names; just because she's a statue (a condition that he's seen reversed many times previously), does it make sense to put off the trip and instead go seek out yet more 'jobs'? I found that for me, it didn't make enough of a difference. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[Skitia]

I always read what is being done to Imoen before irencius takes over Spellhold as just being a prisoner, and not a "Who knows what is being done". The last dialogue line literally is "Rot in spellhold", so to me, that means basically being a prisoner until you know more. It's why I actually don't see the necessity for the petrifying/turn to stone mod. That would be a worse condition to be in, even.

I can see some people enjoying a more time sensitive playthrough, mind.

My personal choice to do everything is based out of a completion-style stand point. In my RP the character wants to help everyone. Delay is born out of distraction and other high-stakes going on. Imoen is still important. If anything raising the fund limit is the only thing I would change. But it's not a change I would have advocated in the original game, because as it is it works to cater to many different play styles, and that's perfect.

I guess that is what modding fulfills, if something isn't to your taste, you can tweak it.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Skitia

[Shin]

23 minutes ago, ithildurnew said:

(I've hit the SCS modded 40,000gp mark on Day 6 once or twice). At that point, what's the character thinking when he goes to bed at night, assuming he placed value on Imoen as a companion? He has more than enough coin, tons of expensive magical equipment, a solid party of powerful adventurers that's been kicking ass and taking names; just because she's a statue (a condition that he's seen reversed many times previously), does it make sense to put off the trip and instead go seek out yet more 'jobs'? I found that for me, it didn't make enough of a difference.

You can easily up the SCS-modded limit to 300k gold, or whatever limit you deem feasible for the way you'd like to play. Or like subtledoctor mentioned, imagine that in order to get to Brynnlaw you need to gather pieces of an item held by Firkraag, Kangaxx and Shangalar the Black.

As for what Charname is thinking, that depends on how you play it: it's your character, after all. What was Frodo and Sam thinking while they were creeping through marshes, getting caught by Faramir and snared by Shelob? All this side stuff crap happening to them when all they want is to destry the ring. I'm sure they did everything they could to get to Mordor and Mount Doom as soon as possible, but in order to do so, there were a lot of other things they had to go through first. That's what makes it a story.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Shin

[ithildurnew]

After seeing @Subtledoctor's posts I think I'd amend my initial mod suggestion to introduce McGuffins in both ch2 and ch 6:

1.  McGuffins in ch2 would help justify delaying the trip to Spellhold a bit, especially for people who easily and quickly hit 20k/40k gp. Alleviates the need to raise the amount asked by Gaylen Bayle to a comically astronomical amount. However, delaying it for too long undercuts sense of urgency which I fear would make it feel like an artificial extension (which is why I'm adverse to using the SCS option to raise the fee to some silly number...  40k, maybe even 60k doesn't seem too crazy, but 'ONE MEELLION GOLD PIECES MUHAHAHA'  feels clumsy. This is probably a fine balancing act - add real urgency, consequences for delay that I suggested, but still make it feasible to finish several quests so you're not cramming them all into CH6.
2. McGuffins in ch6 in order to get soul back, unfinished quest bosses possess the needed Mcguffins -  believable motivation for pursuing chapter 2 quests that were skipped or unfinished because of the urgency of getting to Spellhold. Gameplay-wise, content like Twisted Rune, Kangaxx also probably makes more sense in Ch6 than cheesing/savescumming those encounters in Ch2 right out of Chateau Irenicus.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[subtledoctor]

10 minutes ago, Shin said:

What was Frodo and Sam thinking while they were creeping through marshes, getting caught by Faramir and snared by Shelob? I'm sure they did everything they could to get to Mordor and Mount Doom as soon as they could, but in order to do so, there were a lot of other things they had to go through first. That's what makes it a story.

Right.  But I think the point it, Tolkien did a really good job of folding those other adventures into the overall mission.  Bioware, to put it mildly, did not.

[ithildurnew]

6 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Right.  But I think the point it, Tolkien did a really good job of folding those other adventures into the overall mission.  Bioware, to put it mildly, did not.

They were definitely not taking their sweet time because they wanted to collect moar gold or trinkets they could stab Ringwraiths with... 

@subtledoctor hit it right on the head; the way BW handles it is the issue. The plot ultimately plays out like yet another harmless, fun game ultimately rather than an epic tale, because the implied consequences are fake; there are no actual consequences in the game in ch 2/3 or 6. You can imagine all kinds of story elements/motivations as you play through the game, but the reality is, it doesn't enforce some of the most critical choices available to the player (while oddly enough harshly enforcing other choices like 'you killed the wrong NPC, STAB STAB GAME OVER'). Which is good enough; it is a fun game, not a serious attempt at a novel... some of us just wish that it was a game that delivered a bit better on the story aspect at times.

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[Shin]

7 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Right.  But I think the point it, Tolkien did a really good job of folding those other adventures into the overall mission.  Bioware, to put it mildly, did not.

Well, Tolkien also wasn't faced with a division between main and side content. A lot of the non-critical Athkatla content is very well made and serves to make the player's journey a lot richer, but if all of it were mandatory there would be very little optional content left in the game and all players would be forced to do everything.

[ithildurnew]

5 minutes ago, Shin said:

Well, Tolkien also wasn't faced with a division between main and side content. A lot of the non-critical Athkatla content is very well made and serves to make the player's journey a lot richer, but if all of it were mandatory there would be very little optional content left in the game and all players would be forced to do everything.

Tom Bombadil? 

[Lauriel]

10 hours ago, ithildurnew said:

As for motivation for breaking into houses... ... for me having someone like Imoen (or even Coran or Alora) is enough. I mean, she probably won't break into and rob EVERY house in Beregost say, but given her personality and skillset she's definitely going to have a look around and might even pocket some nice things, just like she used to do back in Candlekeep (where DID she get that Wand of Missiles, hmm...).

I've used that too.  The thieves overhear me chastisting the poor fool who wants to have someone steal the telescope, and scoop up the job.  Yes, I'm ok with that.  They would do that on the sly.

10 hours ago, Arthas said:

You want a knock the door mod?  that's actually a cool idea!

Yes, yes I do!  I want someone to ask me to check up on Joseph's wife because everyone in town knows she worried about him and you're going there anyway.  I want signs for 'Help Wanted' in windows.  I want to hear 'woe is me! oh won't someone help me!' coming from a house as I walk by, I want shopkeepers to say 'you know, that looks like so-and-so's ring that this other so-and-so was asking about', I want a bulletin board where people put up requests for help.  We do that here.  You walk up to any local store, and there's a hundred little signs asking for help or offering their services.  Yes, I want reasons for good characters to enter into people's houses

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Shin said:

A lot of the non-critical Athkatla content is very well made and serves to make the player's journey a lot richer, but if all of it were mandatory there would be very little optional content left in the game and all players would be forced to do everything.

Don't really see what the problem is... what need is there for "optional content" if all of the content is used toward the progression of the story, and it all integrates well with the story... plenty of games work that way and it can be done really well. 

And anyway including the quests as mandatory would still leave a lot of content as optional - the werewolves and King Strohm excavators and the dragon, in the Windspear hills; the trolls and rakshasas, in the druid grove; all sorts of things in the Umar Hills.  A good story could take you through all those places, while leaving a lot of optional content within those places.

And anyway anyway, that why I advocate a chapter 2 Macguffin mod that allows the player to decide how high that global variable needs to go - set it at 5 and you'll need to do 5 major side-quests before being able to proceed in the main quests (but there will still be others leftover and those will still be optional, and every time you play the game the 5 side-quests that are "mandatory" can be different); set it at 1 and you are basically in the same situation as the vanilla game, where you only have to do a single quest to get the money and other requirements to proceed to Brynnlaw.

In other words, the mod wouldn't hurt people like you; and it would help people like me and ithildurnew.  I'm struggling to understand a point of view that doesn't think it's a good idea...