Jaheira quest in the Cloakwood

[ithildurnew]

The pack of shadow druids you fight near Beedor... wow. I remember this fight being really, really tough every time so this time, I decided to peak under the hood with NI...

Is it intended that two of them are level TEN characters accompanied by 4 level 6 characters? I enjoy challenges and am an experienced player, but this seemed a bit over the top for the point in the game where you face them (my party is around level 5/6) - that seems like something you reserve for boss fights and/or tactical mods. I have SCS installed so of course, the level 10 druids make full use of all kinds of nastiness. Adding to the challenge is that because you don't want to hurt/turn hostile Beedor who is lying there, you can't use a lot of AOE types of attacks against them... makes for a challenging tactical situation, which again, I enjoy... I'm just wondering about 2 casters with double digit levels here.

Edited February 5, 2020 by ithildurnew

[jastey]

7 hours ago, ithildurnew said:

Is it intended that two of them are level TEN characters accompanied by 4 level 6 characters?

I have honestly no idea. I do not recall any "this is supposed to be a real hard fight!!" discussions from the workroom, though. If anyone wants to provide more appropriate leveled cre files please feel free, I think if they scale their tactics with SCS that would be sufficient for a challenging fight.

[Vlan]

Almost all unique enemy casters in BG are 10+ with SCS installed. And some of them are even multi/classed to Fighter for more HP.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Vlan

[Lauriel]

Ouch!  That's a bit harsh!

[ithildurnew]

1 hour ago, Vlan said:

Almost all unique enemy casters in BG are 10+ with SCS installed. And some of them are even multi/classed to Fighter for more HP.

It appears they're level 10 even without SCS installed (checked pre-EET BG1EE install with NI; SCS installs on the BG2EE side with a proper EET installation).

My guess is someone decided to up the difficulty somewhere along the line, as their names are X#SHDR06 for the level 6 ones, but the level 10 guys are named X#SHDR08 which would seem to indicate they were meant to be level 8 at one point. Examining the level 10 guys' scripts (X#prefix, pre SCS scripts) shows they're meant to be fully capable of utilizing level 5 spells like Insect Plague and Ironskins (really deadly vs. most lvl 5 or 6 parties). That's fine for me and a lot of veteran players, steep challenge can be fun, but it seems a bit over the top especially for newer players as this encounter ends up being tougher than the end of chapter boss fight vs Daevorn. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by ithildurnew

[Angel]

5 hours ago, jastey said:

I have honestly no idea. I do not recall any "this is supposed to be a real hard fight!!" discussions from the workroom, though. If anyone wants to provide more appropriate leveled cre files please feel free, I think if they scale their tactics with SCS that would be sufficient for a challenging fight.

I played this mission several times and don't recall having too much of an issue with it.  And that was with SCS installed and difficulty set to Tactical.  Of course a lot depends on when exactly you go to the Cloakwood, I usually do so when my party is around 5-7 (my Charname is usually paladin which is one of the slowest leveling single classes, so party tends to be higher than her).

And yes, most unique casters from Cloakwood on are level 9 or higher (Davaeorn is 11 if I recall right).  But it's also true that Insect Plague is really damn annoying and there is almost no defense to it (SCS actually nerfs its damage and makes Fire Shield block it).  I suppose that if people really wanted me to I could tone them down to level 8...

Edited February 6, 2020 by Angel

[Lauriel]

1 minute ago, Angel said:

I played this mission several times and don't recall having too much of an issue with it.  And that was with SCS installed and difficulty set to Tactical.  Of course a lot depends on when exactly you go to the Cloakwood, I usually do so when my party is around 5-7 (my Charname is usually paladin which is one of the slowest leveling single classes, so party tends to be higher than her).

And yes, most unique casters from Cloakwood on are level 9 or higher (Davaeorn is 11 if I recall right).  But it's also true that Insect Plague is really damn annoying and there is almost no defense to it (SCS actually nerfs its damage and makes Fire Shield block it).  I suppose that if people really wanted me to I could tone them down to level 8...

l looked in my game set up.  I don't have SCS intalled but the druids are the level 10 ones.  I just don't remember it being that hard of a fight.  I don't remember what I did to defeat them, either.  I remember having to do it twice because that stupid Siren got into the mix, but that's about it.

[Angel]

Mm, maybe I should implement a Protection from Insects spell/scroll in one of my mods to take the -ahem- sting out of Summon Insects, Insect Plague and Creeping Doom. ^^

My copy of Wizard's Compendium says that there is a spell called Mordenkainen's Protection from Insects and Arachnids, but implementing that might make Cloakwood too easy...  Maybe the druid spell Repel Insects? ^^

Edited February 6, 2020 by Angel

[Lauriel]

6 hours ago, Angel said:

Mm, maybe I should implement a Protection from Insects spell/scroll in one of my mods to take the -ahem- sting out of Summon Insects, Insect Plague and Creeping Doom. ^^

My copy of Wizard's Compendium says that there is a spell called Mordenkainen's Protection from Insects and Arachnids, but implementing that might make Cloakwood too easy...  Maybe the druid spell Repel Insects? ^^

Yes please

 

[ithildurnew]

It's not that Insect Plague specifically makes this encounter too hard (I think they managed to get one casting of it off - if you have Remove Fear available you can deal with the pain). It's more that I was surprised there were 2 casters in double digit levels for a non-boss fight. They seem to be kitted as Avengers and can petrify party members with Chromatic Orb (level 10 version); I remember being a little stunned by that. Plus the environment/tactical situation - since you don't want to hurt/anger Beedor it severly limits AOE options - which is an excellent challenge for people who just like to blow stuff up with wand of fire and such. It's the resulting combination of all the ingredients (2 level 10s, 4 level 6s, AOE restriction) that I felt presented a challenge on par with the chapter end boss fight (single level 11 mage with Dimension Door tricks but only 1 level 5 spell, supported by flunkies), which makes me wonder if that was indeed the intent.

Edited February 6, 2020 by ithildurnew

[Angel]

46 minutes ago, ithildurnew said:

It's not that Insect Plague specifically makes this encounter too hard (I think they managed to get one casting of it off - if you have Remove Fear available you can deal with the pain). It's more that I was surprised there were 2 casters in double digit levels for a non-boss fight. They seem to be kitted as Avengers and can petrify party members with Chromatic Orb (level 10 version); I remember being a little stunned by that. Plus the environment/tactical situation - since you don't want to hurt/anger Beedor it severly limits AOE options - which is an excellent challenge for people who just like to blow stuff up with wand of fire and such. It's the resulting combination of all the ingredients (2 level 10s, 4 level 6s, AOE restriction) that I felt presented a challenge on par with the chapter end boss fight (single level 11 mage with Dimension Door tricks but only 1 level 5 spell, supported by flunkies), which makes me wonder if that was indeed the intent.

Not sure if it was what was intended or not, but general consensus seems to be that it is tough but doable.  So guess I'll leave it alone and concentrate on NTotSC instead. ^^

I will note down those spell ideas I had though, they could be a useful addition.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Angel

[Jarno Mikkola]

7 hours ago, Angel said:

My copy of Wizard's Compendium says that there is a spell called Mordenkainen's Protection from Insects and Arachnids,

Yeah, it's called a Fireshield (red). Ouh, you say it doesn't.... it does, to me.

[Lauriel]

1 minute ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Yeah, it's called a Fireshield (red). Ouh, you say it doesn't.... it does, to me.

That's good to know.  Thanks!

[Angel]

15 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Yeah, it's called a Fireshield (red). Ouh, you say it doesn't.... it does, to me.

Not in the base game, but I know SCS makes this change to the spell system.  Maybe SR does too, not very familiar with it.

Anyway, I think druids should be able to defend against these type of spells and Repel Insects is in the PHB, so that one is on the list for my spell pack. ^^

[grodrigues]

4 hours ago, Angel said:

Anyway, I think druids should be able to defend against these type of spells and Repel Insects is in the PHB, so that one is on the list for my spell pack. ^^

In SR(R), the level 3 Storm Shield spell (druid/shaman only) also protects against insects.