Emulate Hold without Hold effect

[Magus]

I got a spell which holds the caster (project image style), and it's incompatible with PnP free action, because it adds immunities to hold, stun, etc. PI works normally, though, I presume because it's image project effect does that automatically.

Any ideas what to do? It's got to be true hold/stun just setting speed to 0 isn't enough.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Yeah, you got to set the attacks per round to zero, and casting failure rate to 100%... but that's likely to also effect things badly. As that won't likely to be taken "seriously" by the AI.

[Angel]

What about Pause Target (#165)?

[Magus]

2 hours ago, Angel said:

What about Pause Target (#165)?

Yay, it works, actually. Thanks. The only issue it that caster is still selectable, but I guess that can be resolved by strapping feeblemindness on top.

Take that, @Miloch!

[subtledoctor]

Can also use one of the other Hold effects.  Opcode 175 and 185.  AFAIK They are basically identical to opcode 109 Hold, but they are reserved for instances in the game where something needs to be Held even if normally immune to Hold.  (Similar to the extra Movement Modifier effect, opcode 176, which is meant to work even when you are immune to opcode 126.)

(If "PnP free Action" is making the subject immune to opcodes 175/185/176, then it is doing a bad job and should be fixed.)

Edited February 7, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Magus]

It does, and you probably have a point, but maybe it's because reasons... Anyway, I tagged the author, so hopefully he'll see this sometime.

[Magus]

On the second thought, feeblemindness also set Int to 3, which is probably more intrusive than needed. Just pause will have to do.

[Bartimaeus]

21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

(If "PnP free Action" is making the subject immune to opcodes 175/185/176, then it is doing a bad job and should be fixed.)

Yeah, it really shouldn't be doing 185 at least. It adds immunity to 175/185 (but not 176) from what I can tell. I used to use this mod what seems like ages ago, but stopped at some point when I realized SR and IR were handling it fine. SR also uses 185 for petrification.

(e): In the vanilla game, 185 is used for holding undead with actual spells like spwi324 and spcl742, so maybe that's why it was added. Otherwise, it seems to be used only for special effects that should not be blocked. ...#skellieslivesmatter?

As for 175, it's used by various spells in vanilla like Hold Person (sppr208, spwi306), while 106 is used for various normal spells like Web. I would guess the distinction is that 175 is a mental hold, while 106 is a physical hold. Free Action obviously makes a lot of sense for 106, while the case is kind of iffy for 175 (...note that both vanilla and SR Free Action also have protection against 175 for Free Action, iffy as it may be).

Edited February 8, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

All due respect to Miloch, the first problem is in whether the game uses the various different kinds of Hold in a systematic fashion.  (The idea of 175 being a 'mental hold' doesn't really hold up when you consider there is a 'stun' effect.  And even if it did make sense, that doesn't matter if the game doesn't actually use it that way.)

The question of whether modders adhere to that systematic method of course secondary to the former issue.

[Bartimaeus]

re Hold vs. Stun: While there's no functional difference between these in the IE games, there is a distinction in actual D&D and the different ways they can be applied and their effects, so I don't really equate the two.

Vanilla spells using 175:
SPIN996 (Death Gaze?)
SPIN990 (Paralyze?)
SPPR208 (Hold Person)
SPWI818 (Bigby's Clenched First)
SPWI507 (Hold Monster)
SPWI306 (Hold Person)
SPPR305 (Hold Animal)

Vanilla spells using 109:
SPWI215 (Web)
SPIN683 (Web Tangle)
SPDR201 (Web)
SPIN960 (Paralyzation Ray)
SPPR728 (Implosion)
SPWI711 (Sphere of Chaos)
SPIN566 (Mimic Web)

There's definitely a pattern, but it's a weak and not consistently followed one. Sphere of Chaos should probably use 175 and Bigby's Clenched Fist (and probably SPIN990) should probably use 109 if that were the rationale.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Guest guest]

175 and 185 are identical, differing only in their usage. 185 was reserved as the special hold that only worked on undead. As an added bonus, since pretty much all immunity-to-hold items only block 175, 185 became the go-to opcode for cutscenes and other times you really, really needed the party to be held (e.g. the Selfishness trial in Hell).

Pretty much nothing should block 185 by default.