Cahir's EET Epic Run Mod Order help request

[Lightbringer]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Ultimately, you are *supposed* to be under-leveled, relative to certain enemies like Davaeorn and Sarevok. Even with SCS, those encounters are geared to be handled with ~80K and 160K XP, respectively. 

Yeah, SCS makes that underleveling a big problem. SCS Sarevok was a huge challenge -- easily the toughest fight so far. Of course, it's supposed to be. I used the SCS tactical challenge. I was, as told, a few levels ahead, and WAY better equipped than vanilla.

I had max HP (even wizards were around 100hp), very high stats (MC monk had unbuffed Str of 21), buffed ACs in the -16 range (MC was -26), saves near zero or negative (worst save was a 2), all THAC0s below 5, most near zero.  That was with Prot from Evil, Defensive Harmony, and Inv potions for everyone, and Draw Upon Holy Might for charname and clerics (Minsc and FinchNPC). All were warrior multiclasses plus a paladin.  It was still a massive challenge.  I was actually powerful enough to stand toe to toe with him just a little. It was enough to finish him off after downing all but Angelo. By the way, SCS Angelo has 8th level spells. I ate an Abi-Dalzim's from that punk. I don't feel bad being a little higher level when facing that kind of nonsense.

To be honest, I still ended up using ctr-Y (the healing cheat) to rez Imoen during the fight, just because I didn't want to deal with any scripting issues of her being dead and her gear on the ground for the transition to SoD.

@CahirI should mention Finch for BG1!  She's an adorably bookish little gnome cleric who is BG1 only. Impeccably voiced and lots of fun. She can be found at Pocket Plane Group if you need a cute cleric gal. Ohhh, if only I was taller ...

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lightbringer

[Lightbringer]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

(Hint: use lots of potions and lots of summons.)

There's a playstyle difference. I almost never use buffing potions, and I despise the "surround 'em with summons" strategy. I should use more potions, so that's on me, but I feel like if I have to resort to summon surrounding, I didn't really win the fight. Maybe one or two critters to distract or aid (and that rarely), but no more.

I want to be able to face down my foes. In the vanilla BG, I remember the lots of summons strategy was the preferred method to take down Sarevok (and apparently the SoD boss, too). I always resented that. It was like forcing the player to admit that Sarevok was the superior force. It also felt like bad design -- intentionally making it so the foe could not be reasonably defeated by the power in your hands. It felt like a stolen victory -- like Sarevok should have won. Now, my charname can win on her own. Much more satisfying to me. 

So, @Cahir you've got a range of suggestions from a few different playstyles and associated progressions -- all valid in their own right by personal preference. Now you get to craft your own!

[Cahir]

Oh boy, that's a lot of chew in, guys

From the look of it my playstyle is a bit of a mix of yours. I don't mind using options, and in fact I'm looking forward to do it, because in vanilla there was absolutely no need to do it. On the other hand I don't like summons and Im with you @Lightbringer. Also I didn't really ever used sequencers and contingencies and frankly speaking, I really don't know how to use it efficiently. And I feel I will need to learn how to use them to survive. Also from what I see @subtledoctor is so accustomed to SCS playthroughs that basically now everything is like one level of difficulty lesser for him than it would be for him. Like, Tactical for him, would be Improved for me. I definitely don't think the game would be ever a cackewalk for me since I'm no tactitian at all. I learned Tactical fights on Pathfinder Kingmaker, but only after installing Turn base mod. Only after that the game forced me to use various spells, attacks and even to use potions. I feel SCS will force me to do the same, but beeing RTwP it will be much more difficult for me. I'm not sure how experience player you are, @Lightbringer, but I'm definitely less experience than you. And since you said, even overleveled by a level or two the game was still fun and challenging, I'm inclined to not reduce XP, but I need to po der about it more.

But let's see in BGEE part I have NTotSC, The Stone of Askavar, Ascalon's Questpack, BGQE, Sirine's Call, UB and I think that's about it. Frankly speaking, I think only the first two would be a significant XP boost. I won't install DTotSC, which as I understand is a significant XP paradise, no Dark Horizons and all other OP stuff, so I think I should be more ore less on @Lightbringer's spot of 1-2 levels above vanilla. So I think I' m get home d with that, and SCS with be still a challenge. If not, I can always crank up difficulty level by one. 

@subtledoctor, so I can safely install this particular XP reducing tweak at the very end, right after EET_end, and then uninstall it after let's say SoD? 

 

[subtledoctor]

I also highly recommend Finch.

As for the SCS challenge: my sense is, the various “improved encounters” are quite uneven. Some have improved AI and are just more organic challenges; others throw up kind of cheap-seeming roadblocks. Not for nothing I don’t install the altered Sarevok fight. I’d rather pass on that and have the rest of the game be more fun, than induce my party to get 5 times the normal amount of XP (!!) just to get past it. The normal Sarevok fight, with all the normal SCS AI imptovements, is plenty fun for an ~8th level party. 

[subtledoctor]

Quote

so I can safely install this particular XP reducing tweak at the very end, right after EET_end, and then uninstall it after let's say SoD?

I'm pretty sure yes.  At least, the "No Murder XP" component that I built in SoB.  If you install it at the very end, you can uninstall, reinstall, change the values, as often as you like over the course of the game.  It is not retroactive; it only affects the enemies that you fight after it is installed.  And I think the creature XP reducer in EET Tweaks works the same way.

Worth pointing out: I'm not particularly good at this game!    I am currently in chapter 2 of my first BG2EE game ever.  My last BG2 game was BGT, before the EEs came out.  (The Kivan mod caused a crash at the transition to TOB, and I could not proceed, so I rage-quit and didn't come back for years.  I heard that bug was fixed, though.)

Also, don't underestimate the extra stuff you will have at your disposal: the extra spells from SR, FnP, and SCS/IWDification give you a number of more strategies to play with.

I will say, one thing that I found incredibly rewarding was to play some IWD.  I rolled up some very focused, themed parties. 

• Like my tree-hugger party: a ranger, a fighter/druid, a druid/thief, a druid/mage, and a fire mystic.  Nobody to do real tanking - no plate armor!! - and none of the usual go-to cleric magic, and very little arcane magic.  I relied heavily on summons (SR + FnP = druids who are really good summoners), controlling the field with Entangle/Web/Spike Growth, ranged attacks, and some selective direct-damage spells from the mystic.  I don't use cheap tactics with summons, just extra foot soldiers to call onto the battlefield to keep this or that enemy engaged, or to protect my flank.
• I also played an all-cleric party: a paladin, a fighter/cleric, a cleric/mage, a cleric/thief, and a pure cleric.  This party lacked all of the tools I was used to from the druids: no summons, no controlling the landscape, crappy with ranged attacks.  It meant a lot of brute-forcing my way through fights, with buffs to get me through and lots of healing to handle all the damage I took (because taking damage was unavoidable).  This was hard at first, but eventually I got used to it and they became powerhouses.
• Then I played a party of 5 bards and a cleric/thief, back when MnG bard kits were true bards.  A gallant, a skald, a blade, a meistersinger, a loresinger, and a cleric/thief of Tymora.  This, again, was extremely difficult at first because these guys were not nearly as powerful or durable as the divine party.  And they had few summons, and almost zero direct-damage magic.  And the paucity of scrolls in IWD meant that each only had a few spells and really had to stick to a few techniques.  But they all had different, stacking bard songs, and they all had some magic, and they could use decent weapons.  They were never super-powerful, but they were good enough to beat Yxunomei.
• I also rolled up an all-arcane party and an all-thief party, but either they were boring or I was burnt out, or they were just too ill-equipped to deal with the hordes of undead in the Vale of Shadows, so I didn't take those parties beyond 2nd-3rd level.

I didn't go too far with those druid/divine/bard parties; just through Dragon's Eye.  But they really helped me see how to better use the tools available to those classes.  I highly recommend playing around with IWD like that.

Edited April 21, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Cahir]

@subtledoctor I've been pondering to cut some of Improved encounters from SCS too, and believe it or not, Sarevok's encounter was one of those encounters. Need to think about it more, but since you're saying that it's super hard I may pass on that. And I'm inclined to go with the middle ground of your suggestions and go for 25% reduction.

As for IWD I find its locations and general ambience the best I have ever played in crpgs and I will definitely go back to it some day with IWD NPC and all the cool stuff for it. But I always wanted to do proper EET run and that's a priority on my plate But for IWD your mods are definitely a must!

Anyway, another question. Can I multiclass updated dragon disciple from T&B with fighter kit from other mod? Because I will be playing a dragon disciple of blue draconic origin (spawn of canonical Morueme clan from the North) who I would like to mix with other fighter kit (maybe Wizard Slayer, or something different not sure yet). If this is possible, could you suggest some kit (it definitely can be from one of your mods) that would be fitting? Also is it possible to multiclass (with all selected mods) a shadowdancer with one of the shadow magic user kits from Shadow Magic? I would like this mix for Vicky. Since she's Shar disciple it would be fitting for her to use shadow magic.

 

 

[Lightbringer]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

As for the SCS challenge: my sense is, the various “improved encounters” are quite uneven. Some have improved AI and are just more organic challenges; others throw up kind of cheap-seeming roadblocks. Not for nothing I don’t install the altered Sarevok fight. I’d rather pass on that and have the rest of the game be more fun, than induce my party to get 5 times the normal amount of XP (!!) just to get past it. The normal Sarevok fight, with all the normal SCS AI imptovements, is plenty fun for an ~8th level party. 

I might very well skip the SCS improved Sarevok next run.  I've loved the other Tactical Challenges so far, though I've yet to try any in BG2 yet. I installed them all.  Next up is D'arnise Keep, so we'll see what T'orgal has in store for me.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I will say, one thing that I found incredibly rewarding was to play some IWD.  I rolled up some very focused, themed parties. 

• Like my tree-hugger party: a ranger, a fighter/druid, a druid/thief, a druid/mage, and a fire mystic.  Nobody to do real tanking - no plate armor!! - and none of the usual go-to cleric magic, and very little arcane magic.  I relied heavily on summons (SR + FnP = druids who are really good summoners), controlling the field with Entangle/Web/Spike Growth, ranged attacks, and some selective direct-damage spells from the mystic.  I don't use cheap tactics with summons, just extra foot soldiers to call onto the battlefield to keep this or that enemy engaged, or to protect my flank.
• I also played an all-cleric party: a paladin, a fighter/cleric, a cleric/mage, a cleric/thief, and a pure cleric.  This party lacked all of the tools I was used to from the druids: no summons, no controlling the landscape, crappy with ranged attacks.  It meant a lot of brute-forcing my way through fights, with buffs to get me through and lots of healing to handle all the damage I took (because taking damage was unavoidable).  This was hard at first, but eventually I got used to it and they became powerhouses.
• Then I played a party of 5 bards and a cleric/thief, back when MnG bard kits were true bards.  A gallant, a skald, a blade, a meistersinger, a loresinger, and a cleric/thief of Tymora.  This, again, was extremely difficult at first because these guys were not nearly as powerful or durable as the divine party.  And they had few summons, and almost zero direct-damage magic.  And the paucity of scrolls in IWD meant that each only had a few spells and really had to stick to a few techniques.  But they all had different, stacking bard songs, and they all had some magic, and they could use decent weapons.  They were never super-powerful, but they were good enough to beat Yxunomei.
• I also rolled up an all-arcane party and an all-thief party, but either they were boring or I was burnt out, or they were just too ill-equipped to deal with the hordes of undead in the Vale of Shadows, so I didn't take those parties beyond 2nd-3rd level.

That's awesome! Themed parties are fun. I kind of do that already, being so Good aligned. Heck my "full canon" run with IWD-in-EET will have 2 (two!) paladins. You're right about how much it helps you dig into the spells and figure out new ways to do things.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I built in SoB

I forgot you made Scales of Balance! That's a great mod. I love the compacting of proficiencies. I adapted a version of your proficiency awarding system for my games, with a similar philosophy.

36 minutes ago, Cahir said:

I've been pondering to cut some of Improved encounters from SCS too, and believe it or not, Sarevok's encounter was one of those encounters. Need to think about it more, but since you're saying that it's super hard I may pass on that. And I'm inclined to go with the middle ground of your suggestions and go for 25% reduction.

Probably wise. Vanilla Sarevok is already stupid hard.  I would keep the others in BG1. They weren't too crazy and added good flavor. Don't plan on doing Nashkel Mines below level 3 if you do Dark Side Kobolds. Also, totally do Dark Side Kobolds, as it makes the (otherwise rather boring) Nashkel mines so much more fun. I especially loved the Wolf of Ulcaster.

Before SCS, I had a very brute force approach to everything. I played a "use sword on monster" style. Changing it up meant I hurled a few fireballs first from potions and necklaces. If I got real spicy, I'd bring my one wizard in to cast web. I had one wizard, one cleric, and everyone else was a warrior. SCS has encouraged me to diversify a little and try a few new things. I'm new at this too, and it's working pretty well. In fact, with all the multiclassing, I actually have two wizards now (audible gasp!) as well as two clerics. 'Course, they're also fighters (one cleric is a ranger), so I can still go warheads on foreheads if I wish.

It sounds like you'll do just fine. SCS kind of breaks you in gradually. Just be ready to load/reload before some fights if you get surprised by clever tactics. Then stomp face!

Heh. I don't know which mod caused it (there are many potential culprits), but I just had a beholder teleport in with a couple gauth randomly in the Temple Sewers near Roger's Sea Troll. Gonna be a woolly ride!

(I kicked its floating butt)

[Lightbringer]

Let me tell you what I did, so you can decide what kind of filter to place on my suggestions. My playstyle differs from many in the community. It's basically: make me earn big-high power, and get the monsters to keep up with me. It's a philosophy of abundance, as opposed to what I see otherwise as a philosophy of scarcity. There's probably a middle ground, but this is what works for me.

I removed all caps, had no reductions, included nearly full scroll/trap/lock xp, and installed every mega and quest mod that didn't seem like total cheese. I skipped Dark Horizons for reasons you're already aware of. I also skipped (I think) Shadows over Soubar and Check the Bodies, as they seemed questionable. Almost every.thing.else though.

Really, I'm anticipating this strategy for including IWD-in-EET into the progression. My goal is zero need for XP reduction.  This is my playtest to see how it works.

I make liberal use of EEkeeper. Everyone gets 18 Dex and 18 Str. Fighters get 18/51, unless I roll higher. I also assign proficiencies as I see fit, not what the game or a mod gives an NPC. I also assign classes/kits to fit my party vision.  Imoen and Dynaheir -- Fig/Mag, Minsc -- Ran/Cle, Finch -- Fig/Cle, Isra -- Inquisitor, Charname -- monk/fighter (with full thief abilities added back in). 

I installed the Max HP for PCs and NPC/monsters (CD-tweaks, maybe?). This was really important, it turns out, as my party became incredibly deadly. Hob elites actually still might take a couple swings by end of BG1. It was a great decision.

I also enforced a rule of multi-class everyone. If I could multiclass the Paladin, I would. If Isra (love her!) gets too far ahead, I'll cut her XP.

Finally, I rely on SCS to help the enemies keep up with my powerhouse party. So far, it's worked really really well.

Interesting note, the first time through, I kept full BG2 xp for spells/locks/traps. I had a created-npc fighter/thief who unlocked every chest in Candlekeep. My vanilla monk actually made it to level 2 before Gorion's death.  Due to a few xvarts and kobolds dropping spell scrolls, and Imoen being keepered into a fighter/mage, my monk made level 3 before the Friendly Arm Inn. I felt like I missed some of the fun of the early, vulnerable times. With a better tailored early progression and multiclassing, none of those shenanigans occurred. The vulnerable time was shortened, but it was still there.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lightbringer

[Lightbringer]

1 hour ago, Cahir said:

Anyway, another question. Can I multiclass updated dragon disciple from T&B with fighter kit from other mod? Because I will be playing a dragon disciple of blue draconic origin (spawn of canonical Morueme clan from the North) who I would like to mix with other fighter kit (maybe Wizard Slayer, or something different not sure yet). If this is possible, could you suggest some kit (it definitely can be from one of your mods) that would be fitting? Also is it possible to multiclass (with all selected mods) a shadowdancer with one of the shadow magic user kits from Shadow Magic? I would like this mix for Vicky. Since she's Shar disciple it would be fitting for her to use shadow magic.

I hope you figure those out, because it sounds awesome! Viconia as a shadowdancer/cleric? Fascinating! I like that style of crafting your own ideas of what classes to give characters.

[4udr4n]

@Cahir For multiple kits you need the multikit builder or to spend some time wrestling with EEkeeper.

Be ready to muck about with either to get the result you want.

 

 

[Cahir]

42 minutes ago, Lightbringer said:

I hope you figure those out, because it sounds awesome! Viconia as a shadowdancer/cleric? Fascinating! I like that style of crafting your own ideas of what classes to give characters.

Viconia Revamped mod from my list has a component to turn Vicky to shadowdancer/cleric (this is my default install setting). What I would like to do is to change cleric part to Shadow adept from Shadow Magic mod. @subtledoctordoes any of mods/components I've chosen allow to multiclass two kits? Also the problem with Shadow Adept is that it is a mage kit and I don't see a cleric kit in Shadow Magic mod Worst cast scenario I'll leave default setting or (if possible) change default cleric to some cleric of Shar kit (probably from FnP) .

[Cahir]

28 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

@Cahir For multiple kits you need the multikit builder or to spend some time wrestling with EEkeeper.

Be ready to muck about with either to get the result you want.

 

 

Will it work for EET? Is it stable? It seems beta(ish). I'm not comfortably enough using EE Keeper to risk screwing up something. I installed many kit mods specifically to be able to make this kind of specific combination. The question is can I multiclass two kits. Knowing @subtledoctor I wouldn't be surprise if this is possible. 

[Lauriel]

16 minutes ago, Cahir said:

Will it work for EET? Is it stable? It seems beta(ish). I'm not comfortably enough using EE Keeper to risk screwing up something. I installed many kit mods specifically to be able to make this kind of specific combination. The question is can I multiclass two kits. Knowing @subtledoctor I wouldn't be surprise if this is possible. 

I use EEKeeper all the time with EET and it works fine for the most part.  I had no issues at all with it until I loaded Will to Power then it would crash when bringing up any of the spell menus.  Other than swapping out spells when you have W2P, it'll work great, though...well as far as I've experienced.  I've never attempted as many mods as you all are so I have no idea if any of them make EEKeeper lose it's marbles or not, but the few I use, don't.

[Cahir]

Oh, now I get it, after reading customisation part of SCS ReadMe. See, back in the day I saw a youtube video with the final fight with Sarevok and there was a guy names Diarmid, who I haven't recognised at all from that encounter. Now I see it was added by SCS's Improved Sarevok fight. Yeah, I'll definitely skip this one, because the fight on this video was brutal. Yeah, hard pass

[Cahir]

11 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I'm pretty sure yes.  At least, the "No Murder XP" component that I built in SoB.  If you install it at the very end, you can uninstall, reinstall, change the values, as often as you like over the course of the game.  It is not retroactive; it only affects the enemies that you fight after it is installed.  And I think the creature XP reducer in EET Tweaks works the same way.

@subtledoctor does it mean that I should install this tweak after EET_end, so at the very last spot? Because if I would install it right before EET_end I would need to uninstall EET_end first, risking screwing up of my game, right?