Cahir's EET Epic Run Mod Order help request

[subtledoctor]

TnB multiclass sorcerers (as well as my Mana Sorcerer) only replicate basic sorcerers - no kits. It could be done, but it would involve time and effort we just don’t have. (Ditto for multiclass shamans in FnP.) I highly doubt the Multiclass Multikit mod would work with these kits - it is just designed with different assumptions about how to integrate kits. 

You cannot make a multiclass Shadowdancer (even with Multiclass Multikit) because some kit abilities are totally hard-coded. I specifically recall that Hide in Plain Sight only works for the one vanilla kit. OTOH if you use MnG’s revised Shadowdancer, which replaces HiPS with other abilities, then you could probably use Multiclass Multikit to make a MC version of my revised kit. (The revised kit may be automatically installed with the feat system... I forget.)

[Cahir]

6 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

TnB multiclass sorcerers (as well as my Mana Sorcerer) only replicate basic sorcerers - no kits. It could be done, but it would involve time and effort we just don’t have. (Ditto for multiclass shamans in FnP.) I highly doubt the Multiclass Multikit mod would work with these kits - it is just designed with different assumptions about how to integrate kits. 

You cannot make a multiclass Shadowdancer (even with Multiclass Multikit) because some kit abilities are totally hard-coded. I specifically recall that Hide in Plain Sight only works for the one vanilla kit. OTOH if you use MnG’s revised Shadowdancer, which replaces HiPS with other abilities, then you could probably use Multiclass Multikit to make a MC version of my revised kit. (The revised kit may be automatically installed with the feat system... I forget.)

That's a bummer, I hoped to multiclass dragon disciple kit from TnB with something else. In that case it would need to stay dd for the whole run. 

You sure shadowdancer cannot be multiclass? There is a component of Viconia Revamped mod that allows to multiclass Viconia with shadowdancer/cleric. Didn't tested it obviously, so I can't tell if it works as advertised. 

[Lightbringer]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

TnB multiclass sorcerers (as well as my Mana Sorcerer) only replicate basic sorcerers - no kits. It could be done, but it would involve time and effort we just don’t have. (Ditto for multiclass shamans in FnP.) I highly doubt the Multiclass Multikit mod would work with these kits - it is just designed with different assumptions about how to integrate kits. 

You cannot make a multiclass Shadowdancer (even with Multiclass Multikit) because some kit abilities are totally hard-coded. I specifically recall that Hide in Plain Sight only works for the one vanilla kit. OTOH if you use MnG’s revised Shadowdancer, which replaces HiPS with other abilities, then you could probably use Multiclass Multikit to make a MC version of my revised kit. (The revised kit may be automatically installed with the feat system... I forget.)

It is odd the way these things interact sometimes. It's a shame that everything can't be completely modular, but understandable. We work with what we have, and sometimes that means workarounds.

As a great example, the wonderful Monastic Orders of Faerun mod technically doesn't involve monks at all. It creates a thief kit and gives it abilities that emulate a monk. An unintended consequence of that is that other mods that anticipate the monk class don't recognize my Monastic Orders monk. That's because, as far as the game engine knows, she's not a monk -- she's a thief with a kit.

Twas a Slow Boat from Kara Tur adds many cool monk exclusive items, but my Monastic Orders monk could use none of them.  It took a little surgery in Near Infinity to fix that. Turns out the Kara Tur author had gone above and beyond and nixed usage to anyone who wasn't a Lawful Human, as well as a Monk -- a case of over-engineering that limited the mod's versatility. On the other end, the Monastic Orders mod runs a script that finds all Armor Slot items and attaches a "can't use" effect to your monk character to prevent the "thief" from equipping it. It cast too wide a net and blocked some items that should be allowable -- such as monk robes from Kara Tur. It took some EEkeeper magic to fix that.

I've had good success with adding 1 kit to a multiclass with EEKeeper, but I was under the impression adding 2 kits to both sides of a multiclass was a different matter. As Subtle and others have pointed out, it also matters what the class/kit actually is under the hood.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lightbringer

[Lightbringer]

10 hours ago, Cahir said:

Oh, now I get it, after reading customisation part of SCS ReadMe. See, back in the day I saw a youtube video with the final fight with Sarevok and there was a guy names Diarmid, who I haven't recognised at all from that encounter. Now I see it was added by SCS's Improved Sarevok fight. Yeah, I'll definitely skip this one, because the fight on this video was brutal. Yeah, hard pass

It was a pretty cool concept. It prevents one of the more common strategies for players whereby they only focus on Sarevok in order to end the fight. The Big Guy instead gets a percent immunity to things based on how many of his acolytes are left. By the time it was down to only one of them (I think it was Angelo, who was by far the toughest minion), the reduction was only 25-30%  I think Sarevok may have had a Min1HP effect while any acolyte was alive.

It was an interesting strategic problem (and SCS had trained me to think of things as such over 130 hours.) The trouble I ran into was that Angelo cast and recast a protection spell that made him impervious to my attacks -- furthermore, his level was high enough that even my Inquisitor's dispel (un-nerfed) couldn't remove it. Next time I go, I'll need to figure out a way to bypass or take down that protection. He was a very effectively played fighter/mage who summoned one of the magic blade spells and packed a big ol' wallop -- in between Greater Malisons, Horrid Wiltings, Chaos, and all the other greats.  I ended up just outlasting both castings of that protection spell before finishing him off in about two hits. Sarevok was dead 1 hit later

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lightbringer

[subtledoctor]

Even with the vanilla Sarevok fight, you have (I think) a 12th-15th level fighter, backed up by another powerful fighter, a mage, and a fighter/mage. Give those mages SCS caster AI and that’s a pretty brutal fight. Yes you can focus on Sarevok, but that’s one reason I liked the way BGT used to handle it, where the game doesn’t end when Sarevok dies. Does “Endless BG1” do the same thing?

57 minutes ago, Lightbringer said:

As a great example, the wonderful Monastic Orders of Faerun mod technically doesn't involve monks at all. It creates a thief kit and gives it abilities that emulate a monk.

Yeah, I consulted with Aquadrizzt as he was making that. We had all sorts of ideas on how to mess with the class/kit structure:

- Move all monks into the thief (rogue) class, now they can multiclass! (Done in MOoFv4.)

- Move all rangers to the original Monk class. (Idea is, finding traps is more appropriate than spellcasting, making it a more secular kit, and anyway you can always give them special abilities; never got around to this.)

- Move bards to the thief (rogue) class; or move them to be multiclass mages. (Both done, at different times, in MnG.)

- You could turn the original ranger class into variant clerics or paladins that have stealth instead of Turn Undead; or now that we can simulate spontaneous casting, you could move shamans to the ranger class. Or use it for a different kind of divine caster altogether, like FnP mystics.

- You could use the original bard class for a dedicated psionicist (with single-use powers via the spells button and maintainable powers requiring concentration via the song button). Or move sorcerers here. Or make a new kind of wizard here, like arcane shamans, or... sky’s the limit. 

We implemented some of it, in some mods; if you have MOoFv4 and MnG v4 installed, the original bard and monk classes are freed up to be used for other purposes. But if you don’t install those then they are not freed up; so a lot of this becomes interdependent, and would require a huge monolithic mod. That would create compatibility issues and restrict player choice, so we didn’t go that far. 

[Lightbringer]

Very cool! I'm a big fan of what Aquadrizzt (and you, it seems!) did with MOoF. Making it a thief kit opens it up for my own tweaking. My version is thoroughly unbalanced toward other classes, of course, but it fits my purposes quite well.

[subtledoctor]

11 hours ago, Cahir said:

@subtledoctor does it mean that I should install this tweak after EET_end, so at the very last spot? Because if I would install it right before EET_end I would need to uninstall EET_end first, risking screwing up of my game, right?

Yes - if you want to change it up, install it after EET_End. 

[Cahir]

11 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

TnB multiclass sorcerers (as well as my Mana Sorcerer) only replicate basic sorcerers - no kits. It could be done, but it would involve time and effort we just don’t have. (Ditto for multiclass shamans in FnP.) I highly doubt the Multiclass Multikit mod would work with these kits - it is just designed with different assumptions about how to integrate kits. 

But can I multiclass basic sorcerer with let's say fighter kit? Or I can only multiclass basic sorcerer with other basic class?

I'm asking because, while would *love* to take blue dragon disciple kit for flavor, I'm not sure if 50% electricity resistance, d6 hit die and the scales feature will make up for loosing one spell slot. I need spell slots, if I'm going to stick only for dragon disciple.

[subtledoctor]

The multiclass sorcerers *are* kits, so no, you can’t combine them with other kits. You can only have one kit, period, end of story. 

The Multiclass Multikit mod analyzes the abilities of two kits that you specify, and then creates a new kit with all of those abilities. That works okay for basic kits, but for kits with exotic coding like some of mine... let’s just say no promises. Like, if one of them is a kit that uses feats, the feats probably won’t work. Or the Shadowdancer: you can copy its kit abilities, but since the result is a new kit and stuff like HiPS is hard-coded to only work with the original kit, the multikit won’t be fully successful. 

I don’t know whether my multi-sorcerers’ spontaneous casting system would work. It might! But, no promises. 

So your choices are, play a dragon disciple (single-class, so you’ll advance quickly enough to have plenty of spell slots), or play a fighter/sorcerer (a fighter/mage with the ‘sorcerer’ kit) or play a fighter/mage with a fighter kit. 

Some day there might be more options - I might eliminate the sorcerer class and put all the sorcerer kits into the mage class, and just allow any mage kit to decide in-game whether they want to use Vancian casting or sorcerer-style casting. Clerics can do that with FnP. But I don’t know if or when I’ll get around to doing that for mages. So for now your options are limited. 

[Cahir]

38 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

The multiclass sorcerers *are* kits, so no, you can’t combine them with other kits. You can only have one kit, period, end of story. 

The Multiclass Multikit mod analyzes the abilities of two kits that you specify, and then creates a new kit with all of those abilities. That works okay for basic kits, but for kits with exotic coding like some of mine... let’s just say no promises. Like, if one of them is a kit that uses feats, the feats probably won’t work. Or the Shadowdancer: you can copy its kit abilities, but since the result is a new kit and stuff like HiPS is hard-coded to only work with the original kit, the multikit won’t be fully successful. 

I don’t know whether my multi-sorcerers’ spontaneous casting system would work. It might! But, no promises. 

So your choices are, play a dragon disciple (single-class, so you’ll advance quickly enough to have plenty of spell slots), or play a fighter/sorcerer (a fighter/mage with the ‘sorcerer’ kit) or play a fighter/mage with a fighter kit. 

Some day there might be more options - I might eliminate the sorcerer class and put all the sorcerer kits into the mage class, and just allow any mage kit to decide in-game whether they want to use Vancian casting or sorcerer-style casting. Clerics can do that with FnP. But I don’t know if or when I’ll get around to doing that for mages. So for now your options are limited. 

@subtledoctor that explains everything, thank you very much fo such a detailed explanation. I'll stick with dragon disciple or go with fighter/sorcerer, still not decided. I want to preserve sorcerer element, that's for sure. And sorry for keeping asking so often, but since this could possibly be my only EET run I want to have perfect mod setup and perfect character as well. 

[jastey]

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Does “Endless BG1” do the same thing?

With EBG1 the BG1 part/game does not end after Sarevok's death like in BGT, yes, in case that was the question.

[Angel]

I do not use EET, so not sure I can be much help here.  I didn't see any obvious issues in the install list.

As for the final battle with Sarevok, yes SCS makes that fight quite difficult.  Sarevok already is pretty damn powerful in a vanilla game and with smarter casters on his side it is quite a spectacle.  But with some better equipment and an extra level or two from the quest mods it is doable, especially since SCS v32 seems to have toned things down a notch.

SoD does feel a little too easy after going through SCS-enhanced BG1, I think this is mainly due to SCS not altering SoD in any way at the moment.  We'll have to see what it is like after @DavidW has a chance to play around with it. ^^

As quest mods go, good selection there, most of those are my favorites.  Northern Tales can still be a little rough around the edges; it can sometimes be a hassle to find the quest triggers and some of the later battles are very challenging.  But @jastey toned down the really difficult ones in the latest version and I think I made most of the items more reasonable, no more ankheg plates everywhere.  I'm still working on some further refinements for NTotSC, but they won't be ready anytime soon, sorry.  And yes, I recall that NTotSC does introduce a few new spells.  I feel they are too high level (6th or 7th I believe) for BG1 but I haven't had the time to take a closer look at them yet.

[Cahir]

@Angel thanks for chiming in, really appreciated. I watched couple of youtube videos of Improved Sarevok fight and I'm convinced I won't install it. It's possible I won't install couple of more Improved encounters. 

I'm also glad to see that my selection of quest mods mostly matching the taste of most of this thread participants. That means that I've chosen the best out there 

 

[Cahir]

Install order update:

- removed 2110: Treat all Innate Abilities as Non-Magical (Unaffected by Wild/Dead Magic and Silence) from Klatu Tweaks and Fixes as per suggestion from Faiths & Powers ReadMe.

- removed 7230: Tougher chapter-five end battle from SSC as per suggestions from @subtledoctor @Lightbringer and @Angel (thanks guys!)

[Cahir]

Sooo, I have tried test install of this list and... it didn't went well. I've done one stupid mistake lreventinf Reveal Hidden Options to install. Also it seems that SCS should be installed after EET_end and SCS's IWD spells didn't install using order suggestion from @subtledoctor (but maybe it's not wrong order issue). What worries me more is that bunch of mods were not installed due to some various errors. Notably:

- The Wheels of Prophecy

- Tome and Blood: (couple of components including multiclass Sorcerer) 

- Faiths and Powers (some components) 

- Item Revisions Revised (some components) 

- Made in Heaven - Item Pack (whole mod) 

- SoD to BG2 Item Restoratiom

- Rogue Rebalancing (Additional Thief and Bard items) 

- Almateria's Restoration Project (one component forgot the name, Restored something) 

These are the ones I remember from the top of my head. Also some mods installed with errors, not sure if those error are harmless or not. 

Anyway, I'll be away from my PC until evening, but then I'll start reporting those install error in specific mod threads. 

This will be a long journey.... and not talking about playing.