Are HP regenerating items cheating?

[johncpatterson]

Hey all, I've been using the Item Revisions mod for a while and I absolutely love it, however I've noticed that a number of items (such as the Cloak of the Wolf in BG1) add an HP regenerating element to the items.  Using the Cloak of the Wolf in BG1, for example, has effectively allowed me to never have to use a health potion on my main character (except for in combat, but even then it helps too, albeit slowly).  Is this considered cheating?  I ask since I don't believe BG1/BG2 had many or any items that allowed for HP regeneration. 

Also, is using the IR mod in general considered "cheating" if it's not used in conjunction with the difficulty increasing SCS mod? 

Let me know your thoughts, thanks so much!

[DavidW]

I think the general consensus in BG2 modding circles is that 'cheating' isn't really a meaningful notion in a single-player game. Some mods, like IR, make the game easier. Others, like SCS, make it harder. Choose your own preferred playstyle and difficulty level. If using IR is making the game too easy for you, try installing SCS. If that becomes too hard, lower its difficulty. Concentrate on a playstyle that works for you.

 

[subtledoctor]

If slow regeneration is cheating, then playing a dwarf with 20 CON after using the CON tome is also cheating...

IR is hardly “cheating...” it makes some items better than they were, it makes others less powerful. Of course it changes parts of the game... if you don’t like that, you shouldn’t use mods. There are some mods that outright make things easier for the player, containing kits or items or spells that are out of whack with the base game stuff. Other mods add interesting new stuff without throwing off the balance of gameplay. I generally consider IR to be in the latter category. Specifically, reducing your usage of potions of healing, for one of six party members, is fairly meaningless. The potions are dirt cheap, and the game gives you enough money to become king of Faerun. 

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Specifically, reducing your usage of potions of healing, for one of six party members, is fairly meaningless. The potions are dirt cheap, and the game gives you enough money to become king of Faerun. 

Well, if the potions cost a lot, the money gained by saving them is exploiting the hole left, and that is considered cheating. Now, if you don't use the potions nor sell them, then it can be viewed as not cheating. It's all in the view of the mechanism that tells you was it wrong.

I myself view the regeneration items as cheats... but it's because the game is flawed, as any regen item gives you instant max hitpoints during save/reload of the game(at least in BG2:ToB), not because traveling with one for 8 hours would give you the hit points of the said effect.

But each on their own.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well, if the potions cost a lot,

Sure. Except,

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

The potions are dirt cheap

 

[Jarno Mikkola]

Sure, potion of extra healing = 450 gold = 27 hit points... add into that the stores proffit take, and they get nice 20 gold per hit point. You save about 2000 gold by saving and reloading. Balance !

[johncpatterson]

Thank you all for the great input on the topic!  Seems like the availability of cheap potions make HP regenerating items not too bad after all :)

[pochesun]

@johncpatterson IR and IRR are extremely hard to be defined as cheating mods. From what i have experienced so far they balance things quite well. 

Also, ask yourself, is potiion that gives your character 25 strength a cheat? Before answering think about potion that gives you 23 strenght. But before answering this try to to answer for 19 strenght. Its all too relative. Some people believe that the game should not allow characters with less than 13 strength to equip a sword at all

Edited June 16, 2020 by pochesun

[Jarno Mikkola]

8 hours ago, pochesun said:

Some people believe that the game should not allow characters with less than 13 strength to equip a sword at all

Right, so the avarage character with 9 STR has no ability to use a sword. Come on... man. Yes, that's 3*d6 rounded down.

[Mike1072]

Putting aside the idea of making the game easier or harder, I think it's valid to discuss whether this behaviour changes the vanilla experience in a good way or a bad way.

Going beyond just IR and including conversions like Tutu, BGT, and the Enhanced Editions, plenty of features were ported from BG2 into BG1, and they change the balance and feel of the game, sometimes for the better and sometimes not.

There weren't any equippable items that provided regeneration in the original BG1, as far as I recall.  I can remember playthroughs where I stocked up on Cure Light Wounds memorizations, not necessarily for combat use, but because it would let me heal up between encounters.  Adding an equippable item with regeneration has a significant impact on the feel of the game.  By passing it around, you can heal the party fully without using any spells, consumables, or resting (which costs gold or has a chance of encountering monsters).  It makes the world feel a little less dangerous, which I don't like.

I would be in favour of removing the regeneration in BG1.  In BG2, regeneration items are much more common, and I don't think this item would be out-of-place.

[pochesun]

13 hours ago, Mike1072 said:

By passing it around, you can heal the party fully without using any spells, consumables, or resting (which costs gold or has a chance of encountering monsters).  It makes the world feel a little less dangerous, which I don't like.

Thats true. But its also true that infinite resting abilities without penalties makes the world even less dangerous. 

For what its worth, if i was a modder, i would restrict or prohibit any resting while being in dungeon. Ability to rest is the most broken thing in BG anyway and there is no way to fix it as things stands, as i can see that.

[Jarno Mikkola]

On 6/17/2020 at 9:44 PM, pochesun said:

Ability to rest is the most broken thing in BG anyway and there is no way to fix it as things stands, as i can see that.

Well...

//EE

COPY_EXISTING_GLOB ~.*\.are$~ ~override~     //

PATCH_IF (REQUIRE_PREDICATE GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee eet~) BEGIN
    WRITE_SHORT 0x10 (THIS BOR BIT5) //EE only
BUT_ONLY
END

In non-EE, the plan is to remove the possibility to rest by interrupting it EVERY time.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[pochesun]

1 minute ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well...

//EE
COPY_EXISTING_GLOB ~.*\.are$~ ~override~	 // 

PATCH_IF (REQUIRE_PREDICATE GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee eet~) BEGIN
	WRITE_SHORT 0x10 (THIS BOR BIT5) //EE only
BUT_ONLY
END

 

What does that mean?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Just now, pochesun said:

What does that mean?

It's weidu's .tp2 code to disable resting in any area.

[pochesun]

1 minute ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

It's weidu's .tp2 code to disable resting in any area.

Even in taverns?