Criticism of SCS mod

[DavidW]

47 minutes ago, Jazira said:

@Splicer_777, SCS is not a mod i would recommend for a first playthrough, the difficulty of the vanilla spell system is sometime frustrating enough for reasons already mentioned without buffing mages.

I basically agree (and the mod readme agrees) - though since the difficulty slider was introduced, I think a new player could play on Basic without too much trouble and ramp the difficulty up as and when they wanted to.

[Lilaina]

7 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

That's a nice theory... but, you seem to have the habbit of adding Spell Immunity: Division to that... or other similar like effects.

A thief's detect illusion skill bypasses Spell Immunity: Divination.

[Caedwyr]

I meant my comment as a bit of a playful joke, but I seem to have hit a nerve and what I wrote didn't come across as I intended.  My apologies.

[jastey]

I got it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

7 hours ago, DavidW said:

I don't know how long it's been since I used projected images in SCS, but it must be at least five years. (They're too much hassle.) And even when I did, they didn't get Spell Triggers or similar, so you can kill them before they get their defenses up. There is limited value in engaging with you if you're just making stuff up about the mod.

Hmm, I wonder, if you knew the reason why the original Liches used the projected images ? The reason was that the liches were "immune to invisibility". Or rather, in game terms,  they didn't have the spells memorized. At all. In technical terms, the spell is lower than 5th level spell, so following that, they were supposed to be immune to them via their ring -item. When it wasn't refined to be just against hostile effects.

7 hours ago, DavidW said:

Tell it to Bioware, or to Gary Gygax. Fixing oddities and imbalances in the vanilla spell system isn't SCS's remit, except insofar as I think I have to tweak it to make spell combat viable.

These things are connected, as in: You are still justifying the spell cost. To a spell that they didn't originally even use.

I myself haven't played the BG2 for a whole long time, let alone the mage battles portion, for longer, as the game is kinda long, with EET or BGT-weidu. The last time I played that, was when the Classic Adventures was a thing.

 

1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

A thief's detect illusion skill bypasses Spell Immunity: Divination.

Yeah, thing is, the detection is a spell-state. So if the thief is also the mage of the party, it's useless for a turn, or more if they don't actually detect the enemy ... and they need to be visible themselves to detect things. Meaning the demon right next to them gets a nice snack.

 

7 hours ago, DavidW said:

Nonsense. The game is obviously

...nothing. Sorry, didn't hear. Why didn't you quote me for the whole sentence/statement ? But just to the first period. Must be something wrong with the net.

 

7 hours ago, DavidW said:

(That said, it's been solo-no-reloaded by people playing melee classes, so it's clearly not impossible even then.)

Yeah, right, I can too use the Console and the magic of CTRL + Y, the game is fairly easy at that point.

 

1 hour ago, Caedwyr said:

I meant my comment as a bit of a playful joke, but I seem to have hit a nerve and what I wrote didn't come across as I intended.  My apologies.

Thing is, the mod was already refered in the previous post I replied to, by khelban12. I ingored it at that time. I have never even played it. So... it wasn't that good of a joke. And khelban12 is actually wrong in the statement from what I imagine, as the rules in that mod is that the creatures need to be taken down in the given order or the player is cheathing... that I already have talked about. Ironic.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[Lilaina]

Some quick tips for dealing with enemy mages you can't dispel for whatever reason:

1. Send in summons, let them absorb all the most dangerous spells and deal with the mage afterwards. Works well against lone enemies especially in early to mid game.

2. Send in a fully buffed fighter->mage, bard, M/T, or F/M to tank the mage. Even if you can't damage them, just keep spell immunity/spellshield up until the enemy's protection from magic weapons/mantle etc have run out.

3. Throw a cloudkill or two on top of them. It will keep interrupting them and the damage alone will usually kill them pretty quickly. Especially useful against enemy parties and during ambushes. The wands are especially OP for this.

4. Backstabs are sometimes an option; I don't think it's cheating to scout ahead and do so when possible.

5. Insect plague destroys casters without fire shield.

Access to lvl 7 spell slots in order to deal with liches is the single biggest roadblock that SCS throws at the player but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the party has at least one pure or dual classed mage who will reach the necessary level reasonably fast. Anti-undead weapons and in ToB, Turn Undead, are also options, although admittedly pretty cheesy.

Even at 1.5x power the inquisitor dispel is incredibly powerful as long as the target doesn't have Spell immunity: Abjuration.

44 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

thing is, the detection is a spell-state. So if the thief is also the mage of the party, it's useless for a turn, or more if they don't actually detect the enemy ... and they need to be visible themselves to detect things. Meaning the demon right next to them gets a nice snack.

You can kite the demon and detect at the same time, or just tank it with someone else. Not being able to attack or cast anything is a pretty good trade for what the skill does imo. And Jan shouldn't be your only arcane caster anyway  

Shadowdancers are also especially nice for this since they can do the mini time stop and dispel all illusions immediately and safely.

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

You can kite the demon and detect at the same time, or just tank it with someone else.

To which you need the boots of speed or haste spell, and that's especially bad cause it exhaust the character.

 

1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

2. Send in a fully buffed fighter->mage, bard, M/T, or F/M to tank the mage. Even if you can't damage them, just keep spell immunity/spellshield up until the enemy's protection from magic weapons/mantle etc have run out.

You really think they can tank 4 to 10 levels above their weight ?

 

1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

Send in summons, let them absorb all the most dangerous spells and deal with the mage afterwards. Works well against lone enemies especially in early to mid game.

Which 5 summons are you sending in ? Those needs spell slots too by the way.

It sounds like you must be resting quite often.

[khelban12]

2 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Thing is, the mod was already refered in the previous post I replied to, by khelban12. I ingored it at that time. I have never even played it. So... it wasn't that good of a joke. And khelban12 is actually wrong in the statement from what I imagine, as the rules in that mod is that the creatures need to be taken down in the given order or the player is cheathing... that I already have talked about. Ironic.

It doesn't change anything in my points or yours but just for clarity,  Improved Anvil never occured to my mind. I have heard of its reputation but i have never played it. The mods i wrote about, were Tactics (some cheesy battles of it) and a mod that it's name escapes my mind now and it introduces a new encounter in Spellhold with a hostile party which include a husband and wife that you need to kill in certain order because otherwise the remaining spouse goes into a rage and kills you.

I re-read my post now and i do not find it insulting, but i apologize if you thought my post made fun of you by pointing to Improved Anvil or something and also to Caedwyr for "paying the price" for my post.

[Jarno Mikkola]

10 minutes ago, khelban12 said:

I re-read my post now and i do not find it insulting,

Well, it wasn't... but you hopefully can undestand what I read from it, coupled with Caedwyr's ... and I behaved badly.

[Lilaina]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

You really think they can tank 4 to 10 levels above their weight ?

Here's Mivsan outlasting Kangaxx (lvl 35) at the end of SoA, so probably something like 15 level difference:

Kensai->Mage is obviously OP but anyone with the spellslots and blanket immunity items can wait out Kangaxx's protections after which the rest of the party can rush him down. 

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Which 5 summons are you sending in ? Those needs spell slots too by the way.

It sounds like you must be resting quite often.

Wands of monster summoning provide endless fodder and clerics have plenty of spell slots for skeletons when needed.

The opposite actually, I play with iron-man rules and no resting in dungeons. My parties are pretty optimized however. Something like:

1. Specialist mage/Sorcerer/Edwin

2. F->M, F/M, or Blade

3. F/T, F/M/T, F->T or Jan

4. Cleric or Fighter->Cleric

Rest can be whatever, as long as they have a decent amount of attacks per round.

[InKal]

18 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well, thing is, you have build the enemies so that the player has no chance against them... the spells have counters, but the fact is, the player has to counter ALL of them, and to that, they have no answer... unless they somehow pop up themselves to be 4 level 20 mages. Aka, the problem you create is that they have too many defenses and those have no single counter... unless we use the 9th level spell that gets rid of very many of them.

You have at your usage, Protection from Magical Weapons. That alone is not a big deal... but combine that with Spell protections and invisibility and it becomes a headache to take care off, or to find away around it. Or a waiting game. Or a constant fight againts the improbable... as you can remove it with Dispel Magic, but the enemy is always higher level than the player is, even with 1.5 multiplier with their paladin levels, so there. Your suggestion of taking care of that, is: What ?

Actually it doesn't.

No. 

first, high difficulty like "insane" is called insane for a reason as simple as that. second, no, PFMW even combined with spell protections is not really a problem (I assume that if you are installing tactical components you actually know what you are doing), Improved Mantle can be a problem. In case of Improved Mantle plus spell and combat protections you probably really need at least two mages I mean for real before enemy mage will wipe the floor with you with abu dalzims and comets. In case of Liches (innate immunity to normal weapons) you have good ol cheese Mace of Disruption/Azuredge still working like a charm.

If someone does not want to spend some time learning the spell system, how it works etc. then in my opinion he dont like the game overall or at least the gameplay mechanics and that is what the story mode is for.

[DavidW]

6 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Hmm, I wonder, if you knew the reason why the original Liches used the projected images ? The reason was that the liches were "immune to invisibility". Or rather, in game terms,  they didn't have the spells memorized. At all. In technical terms, the spell is lower than 5th level spell, so following that, they were supposed to be immune to them via their ring -item. When it wasn't refined to be just against hostile effects.

You have a remarkable talent for making up claims about the game and speaking them with authority. Lots of liches in the unmodded game, including lich01, have Improved Invisibility memorized, and pretty much every lich script in the unmodded game casts protective spells of 5th level or lower. And the opcode in the lich protective ring is the same one used in Minor Globe of Invulnerability, which the designers obviously knew did not protect against your own spells.

I don't see much point engaging further with someone who is just making stuff up.

[chimaera]

20 hours ago, Splicer_777 said:

So I am working with: sword and board tank (me)

                                       Keldorn

                                       Korgan

                                       Aerie

                                       Viconia

                                       Valygar (who is totally worthless, all he can do is tame animals yay!)

In my experience Korgan makes a very good anti-mage tank in SCS. There is no critical failure on saving throws, and with his dwarven saving throw bonus, all the immunity & resistance granting items, berserker rage and being generaly sturdy he counters a lot of spellpower by simply being immune. The trick is to send him on his lonesome self, maybe with some summons should the mage just go invisible.

Valygar I'd replace with a summoned npc in ToB, and choose a second arcane spellcaster. Maybe the game will let you summon Edwin? If not, I can recommend Jan Jansen. He can dispel illusions with detect illusion, while keeping himself safe with spell immunities & pfmw. 

[Splicer_777]

1 hour ago, chimaera said:

In my experience Korgan makes a very good anti-mage tank in SCS. There is no critical failure on saving throws, and with his dwarven saving throw bonus, all the immunity & resistance granting items, berserker rage and being generaly sturdy he counters a lot of spellpower by simply being immune. The trick is to send him on his lonesome self, maybe with some summons should the mage just go invisible.

Valygar I'd replace with a summoned npc in ToB, and choose a second arcane spellcaster. Maybe the game will let you summon Edwin? If not, I can recommend Jan Jansen. He can dispel illusions with detect illusion, while keeping himself safe with spell immunities & pfmw. 

Yeah I really wanted an archer. Valygar only gets 2 points in bow proficiency, I have him using that bow that the dwarf blacksmith makes, the bow that shoots limitless lightning arrows...

I wish I could have brought in Corwin from SoD... yeah that game sucks (wish I had skipped it) but I really like the Archer class and wish I could have one in my party.

However I will never have a gnome in my party. I'm racist against gnomes

Btw, is a fighter with a +4 crossbow more effective than in melee with a +2 longsword?

Edited June 29, 2020 by Splicer_777

[chimaera]

19 minutes ago, Splicer_777 said:

Btw, is a fighter with a +4 crossbow more effective than in melee with a +2 longsword?

The only effective archer in ToB is imo a ranger w. the archer kit... or Jan Jansen. :D

But you could edit Valygar to an archer using EEKeeper.