Summon Death Knight Overpowered?

[crackwise]

I have noticed enemy mages really like to summon Death Knights in SR. I like it, as the summon itself is quite powerful and adds a challenge to the fight. However, I think it is in its current state quite overpowered. The problem is while it is a level 7 spell,  the death knight itself can cast the level 9 spell Power Word kill, level 8 spells Power Word Blind, Symbol of Death etc.

So with a level 7 spell, the caster indirectly gains access to level 8 and 9 spells. It seems to be a huge win-win, no? Or is there a trade-off that I am missing to see?

[subtledoctor]

There’s some precedent for this, in the 4th-level druid spell that summons a dryad who can cast 5th-level spells. 

But, yeah this seems a bit out of bounds. 

IMHO a fix might be to limit the Death Knight’s spells to the school of Necromancy. It makes sense because it is undead, and it lets you use Death Ward or SI:Nec to defend against it, preserving the principle of only one spell being needed to counter one spell (with Prismatic Ray as the notable exception).

[Luke]

20 hours ago, crackwise said:

the death knight itself can cast the level 9 spell Power Word kill, level 8 spells Power Word Blind, Symbol of Death etc.

Probably the authors of the mod took inspiration from P&P...

27 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

IMHO a fix might be to limit the Death Knight’s spells to the school of Necromancy. It makes sense because it is undead...

Again, the authors of the mod probably took inspiration from P&P, that's why it makes use of those spells...

[subtledoctor]

Is this supposed to be a proper Lord Soth-style death knight? If so that’s pretty wildly OP for a 7th-level summon.

[Endarire]

D&D 2e isn't balanced in the modern sense:  Death Knights seem focused on killing things.  It's in their name.

Also, spell resistance is a handy counter to many spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

On 6/30/2020 at 9:50 PM, crackwise said:

Or is there a trade-off that I am missing to see?

Well, the mod maker was an idiot. That should explain everything. ...

I have always protested against the mods summons, as they are enhanced creatures, not vanilla calibur ones. See the vanilla demon(hostile) had 80 hit points, this one(friendly) has 168.

[Endarire]

@Mike1072
Since you're in charge of Spell Revisions, what say you regarding the Death Knight spell?

[crackwise]

9 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well, the mod maker was an idiot. That should explain everything. ...

I have always protested against the mods summons, as they are enhanced creatures, not vanilla calibur ones. See the vanilla demon(hostile) had 80 hit points, this one(friendly) has 168.

Well, I think the summon monster series of spells have been updated by SR quite nicely. They were so trash in the vanilla BG2. They are still underpowered though compared to summons such as skeletons and elementals, but are not utterly useless anymore.

I believe death knight would be fine if it did not have acces to higher level spells as mentioned. 

[Mike1072]

11 hours ago, Endarire said:

@Mike1072
Since you're in charge of Spell Revisions, what say you regarding the Death Knight spell?

I defer to Demi's ideas and community feedback when maintaining the mod.  I'm not particularly involved with design or balancing changes, though I can contribute my opinion.

I think the Death Knight's memorized spells are quite powerful.  It looks like Demi wanted the creature to be on the stronger side (to suit lore) and wanted to use other ways to balance the spell.  Maybe the balance didn't quite get there.

[subtledoctor]

Generally, I believe that most basic summoning spells will get you ~3 instances of a creature with the same HD as the spell level; but some spells will get you a single creature that is much stronger.  This is in the latter category.

OTOH that doesn't mean it is balanced well.  I get the devotion to PnP, but then again in PnP I can't see a Death Knight being summoned as a meat shield for some piddly 13th-level spellcaster.  If the mod is going to make allowances for these games (not having the Death Knight immediately murder the summoner), then I don't see why the mod couldn't make other allowances - like, say, reduce some of the OP spell power on the theory that only 'lesser' Death Knights will end up being bound by this spell.

Also, I figure Death Knights should, like fiends, attack the party if not protected by ProEvil.  Unfortunately while I could easily implement what's in the last paragraph in a post-SR tweak mod (I have one of those!), doing this in a way that plays nice with SCS is probably beyond my abilities...

[Jarno Mikkola]

12 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

doing this in a way that plays nice with SCS is probably beyond my abilities...

Just advice to install it before SCS, and you go from there. So SR, your mod, EET and then SCS... eee..

[Guest guest]

or why not, ask @DavidW for assistance.

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Just advice to install it before SCS, and you go from there. So SR, your mod, EET and then SCS... eee..

No. SCS makes separate versions of the fiend-summons for enemy mages, who do not need ProEvil. Even if I add the ProEvil requirement for death knights, SCS will have no way if knowing the make the enemy-only version without that requirement. Then SCS casters will be torn apart by their own summons... which would be funny for a few seconds, but unsatisfying overall. 

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

No. SCS makes separate versions of the fiend-summons for enemy mages, who do not need ProEvil. Even if I add the ProEvil requirement for death knights, SCS will have no way if knowing the make the enemy-only version without that requirement. Then SCS casters will be torn apart by their own summons... which would be funny for a few seconds, but unsatisfying overall. 

Does SCS still use the Protection from Evil mechanics in a non-SR game, or is that out completely with/without SR regardless?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Jarno Mikkola]

54 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

SCS makes separate versions of the fiend-summons for enemy mages...

Even if I add the ProEvil requirement for death knights, SCS will have no way if knowing the make the enemy-only version without that requirement.

But it can see your component, and you could suggest to apply a patch to SCS to the very same fiend-summon point... that must be difficult, like a line or say 20. You could even ask DavidW at which point he does this... ähh, but why bother.