Summon Death Knight Overpowered?

[crackwise]

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

No. SCS makes separate versions of the fiend-summons for enemy mages, who do not need ProEvil. Even if I add the ProEvil requirement for death knights, SCS will have no way if knowing the make the enemy-only version without that requirement. Then SCS casters will be torn apart by their own summons... which would be funny for a few seconds, but unsatisfying overall. 

I actually had posted a strange behaviour/potential bug in another thread regarding this, but will repeat it here:

In my game with SR + SCS this is actually what happens when enemy mages cast Summon Fiend or Gate. The summoned demon attacks the enemy caster! SCS is supposed to prevent this, but somehow with SR installed this does not seem to function in my game. (Death Knight always obeys the enemy caster though.)

Any idea why this could br happening?

Edited July 9, 2020 by crackwise

[subtledoctor]

Did you install SR after SCS?

[crackwise]

Nope, I have installed SR before SCS.  After SCS, I have those mods in the following order:  Tweak Anthology, aTweaks, Almateria's Restoration

From aTweaks, PnP Fiends component is not installed. But could it be such that it nevertheless overwrites some stuff?

[DavidW]

14 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

No. SCS makes separate versions of the fiend-summons for enemy mages, who do not need ProEvil. Even if I add the ProEvil requirement for death knights, SCS will have no way if knowing the make the enemy-only version without that requirement. Then SCS casters will be torn apart by their own summons... which would be funny for a few seconds, but unsatisfying overall. 

I don't *think* I edit SUMMON_DEATH_KNIGHT (or the Death Knight script) on an SR install. I think I just use the baseline resource.

 

[Bartimaeus]

@DavidW I think I read you saying once upon a time that atweaks' P&P Fiends component is no longer compatible with SCS, or at the very least has problems due to it being unmaintained over the last decade? I still use this component, so I'm wondering if I should remove it (if the incompatibilities are bad enough) or possibly try to fix it...but uh, I don't actually know what the issues are.

[DavidW]

I don't know for certain. But aTweaks makes quite specific allowances for SCS's fiend-summoning structure, and that structure in turn changed quite drastically when v32 was released. So there is a realistic chance of serious bugs... but I don't know if there actually are any.

[polytope]

1 hour ago, DavidW said:

I don't know for certain. But aTweaks makes quite specific allowances for SCS's fiend-summoning structure, and that structure in turn changed quite drastically when v32 was released. So there is a realistic chance of serious bugs... but I don't know if there actually are any.

I can report one incompatability due to mod development; atweaks gives the option to have fiends with aVENGER/Wisps' scripts but untouched combat stats - for mods that increase the fiends' hp, resistances and level. In the recent version(s) of SCS the extra hp is applied by in game script according to difficulty level and so skipped... and it also seems to be much less than in previous versions, where fiends were, well, fiendishly tough.

[subtledoctor]

10 hours ago, DavidW said:

I don't know for certain. But aTweaks makes quite specific allowances for SCS's fiend-summoning structure, and that structure in turn changed quite drastically when v32 was released. So there is a realistic chance of serious bugs... but I don't know if there actually are any.

Does this apply specifically to SCS ‘Smarter Fiends,’ or SCS ‘General AI,’ or any SCS initialization?

In other words, is there an extent to which we can install some of SCS, which will not invoke the “fiend-summoning structure,” so that we can safely install aTweaks fiends?

[DavidW]

I don't really know. The price aTweaks pays for deciding to be installed after SCS and reliant on its structure is that it would need to be updated any time SCS itself updates. And unfortunately it's no longer maintained, so that's not happened. I can't allow for it on my side and I'm not willing to accept the design constraint of permanently conforming to the assumptions about SCS's structure that aTweaks makes, especially since I don't actually know what they are. Somebody would have to go through its code carefully and see just what assumptions it's making and where.

[subtledoctor]

Well I've got them both installed in my game, and I'm just at the point of getting 6th-level spells.  Gonna be a while yet before I try the Planar Sphere or Spellhold, but eventually I will surely have enemy casters throwing fiends at me.  I'll report over in the SCS forum if anything seems amiss.

My remaining to-do list for this playthrough:

• check aTweaks fiend summons
• nerf death knight
• rearrange HLAs to eliminate planetars

(Anyone have suggestions for how to replace planetars? I used to do something like: clerics get devas, druids get shambling mounds, and wizards get elementals.  But now I have different priests getting a mix of elementals and shamblings, depending on sphere access.  Heck, just how OP are these death knights?  If they are slinging 9th-level magic and are strong in melee, maybe they would make a good HLA summon...)

Edited July 10, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Guest erodoto]

any chance of actually using creatures from IA?

[crackwise]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Well I've got them both installed in my game, and I'm just at the point of getting 6th-level spells.  Gonna be a while yet before I try the Planar Sphere or Spellhold, but eventually I will surely have enemy casters throwing fiends at me.  I'll report over in the SCS forum if anything seems amiss.

My remaining to-do list for this playthrough:

• check aTweaks fiend summons
• nerf death knight
• rearrange HLAs to eliminate planetars

(Anyone have suggestions for how to replace planetars? I used to do something like: clerics get devas, druids get shambling mounds, and wizards get elementals.  But now I have different priests getting a mix of elementals and shamblings, depending on sphere access.  Heck, just how OP are these death knights?  If they are slinging 9th-level magic and are strong in melee, maybe they would make a good HLA summon...)

You can directly go to the lich in the city gates sector to test it. In my install, he tends to summon lots of demons, which as mentioned start attacking him after they are summoned. Any other liches (in the temple or docks) would also be fine to test probably.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2 hours ago, Guest erodoto said:

any chance of actually using creatures from IA?

You ought to be a little more precice with your definition... cause there's at least 3 "IA" definitions.