Invisibility: Normal vs. Improved

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

In vanilla Infinity Engine games, I preferred nromal invisibility because it made its subject invisible, and enemies ignored the subject unless they could detect it somehow.  Normal invisibility ends on attack, dispel, or other action that cancels it.

Improved invisibility to me felt... awkward.  It didn't make the subject undetectable for long.  If the subject would normally become detectable via attacking or somesuch, enemies sometimes would notice and pursue the subject, but the subject wouldn't become "invisible" again until the spell ended and was recast.  I didn't much like II since it didn't do this invisibility thing as I expected.  (Note that I didn't use these spells on creatures already sneaking.)

Thus, what's the best way to use improved invisibility for sneaking purposes?  How else are these spells especially useful?

Thankee!

[DavidW]

Improved Invisibility gives a nontrivial bonus to AC and saves, but much more importantly, spells can't be targeted on improved-invisible creatures. That's an enormous bonus.

[Jarno Mikkola]

10 hours ago, Endarire said:

Thus, what's the best way to use improved invisibility for sneaking purposes?  How else are these spells especially useful?

By not using an advanced enemy AI that cheats by knowing where your characters are, even when invisible, after they have been alerted.

[DavidW]

4 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

By not using an advanced enemy AI that cheats by knowing where your characters are, even when invisible, after they have been alerted.

Endarire is discussing creatures that will attack and follow you after the initial full invisibility has been lost. Any AI I’ve ever seen will do that, including the vanilla-game AI.

[InKal]

On 8/17/2020 at 10:13 PM, Endarire said:

Greetings, all!

In vanilla Infinity Engine games, I preferred nromal invisibility because it made its subject invisible, and enemies ignored the subject unless they could detect it somehow.  Normal invisibility ends on attack, dispel, or other action that cancels it.

Improved invisibility to me felt... awkward.  It didn't make the subject undetectable for long.  If the subject would normally become detectable via attacking or somesuch, enemies sometimes would notice and pursue the subject, but the subject wouldn't become "invisible" again until the spell ended and was recast.  I didn't much like II since it didn't do this invisibility thing as I expected.  (Note that I didn't use these spells on creatures already sneaking.)

Thus, what's the best way to use improved invisibility for sneaking purposes?  How else are these spells especially useful?

Thankee!

IMO "improved" refers more to the game mechanics than actual phenomenon. well, the question is: how the fark can you say improved when enemy actually can see you? I was angry for this on Bioware for years...;PPP

two points:

1) mentioned above game mechanics

2) highly magical world with creatures that can see invisible (which is a part of game mechanics actually)

gives us the juicy conclusion:

if you are just (plain?) invisible the undead madafaka (lets call him by his real name) can target you with spells. 

if you are improved invisible he can still see you (everybody can see you! "improved" invsibility is useless for sneaking!) but can't target you with spells outright, must dispel improved!!(sic!) invisibility first. /hope it works like that, lol/

Confusing? Hell, yes.

Dishonest? Imo, no. 

 

Interesting thing... We are talking kinda about AI, no? Artificial Intelligence. Artificial??? Intelligence? Nahhh.... Refers more to the subject than actual intelligence. 

 

 

 

[NiziNizi]

I will put more testing into this as soon I will need exactly to know all of its properties to the last detail, for some specific creatures. Tested basic things of course, and setting of STATEs.

 

Endarire - from my expirience so far, just normal Invisibility will be gone after you perform for example spellcasting or attack. Same for Improved, you are actually visible after that to enemies, but you can't be targeted by spells. Except, with SCS, only spell removal spell can be cast on you (as spells have flag "Can target Invisible").

By spell removals, I mean, for example, Secret Word (mage level 4 spell).

It is not case for Breach, and as for player, it is good to know it. So to Breach target you have to remove Improved Invisibility, for example via spells which remove illusions, True Sight as good example. If target is protected by Spell Immunity Divination, again for example True Sight will not work. So you have to take down SI:Divination by spell removal spells (now I could write a long what protects against what and which removal work in which way, but it is not point of this thread now). That is indeed great "chess play" SCS bring on.

Exception is, as others mentioned, if casting of spell (by some enemy in game) is forced via script on you or your party member. 

Or if creature have "natural ability to see through invisibility" (as you probably heard already or read it somewhere). That is set on .cre file as effect or on their equipped items.

Or, if some custom spell is made, with mentioned flag "Can target Invisible", except mentioned spell removal spells (where SCS made change) which already can do it.

All in all, in my opinion, you can consider it as really good spell to have.

 

------------------------------

 

Now, some technical details, which I will fully test in next days.

Creatures which are intended to see through invisibility have Invisibility Detection (193) effect on creature itself (.cre), and effect on item Modify Script State (282) - Detect Illusions Bonus [undocumented] (25), value 1. I will perform more testing to exactly determine and fully understand every detail (once I start specific tests I do not stop until I have it 100% clear and documented).

Below this my post I did copy something about Invisibility from https://gibberlings3.github.io/iesdp/opcodes/bgee.htm#op193

As spell itself do not have any direct effect regarding of mentioned bonus for AC and Saves of +4, it is regulated in game by some other way. And that is something I would also like to define 100%.

Cast Improved Inv. on yourself and you can see on Record screen that Saves are improved by 4. But at Inventory screen, AC and all modifiers stay same (how exactly it is implemented I do not know).

Improved Invisibility creature have +4 AC and Saves, for all time until that illusion is removed or expired? Mentioned first attack bonus of +4 (for normal inv.), also is gone after you reveal yourself but still you are in Improved Invisibility state?

For "Weak Inv.", I'm not still familiar with it for now. For what I read, it seem like it acts as Improved one, but can't backstab.

 

 

0 Normal Invisibility -> affected creature makes the first attack with +4
1 Improved Invisibility -> affected creature stays invisible after attack
2 Weak Invisibility -> EE: It's the same type of invisibility as 'Improved Invisibility' after you take a hostile action and reveal yourself.

Note: ‘Improved Invisibility’ does not provide saving throw bonuses outside EEs, where it provides a bonus of 4 to all. The same holds for ‘Weak Invisibility’.

Note: ‘Improved Invisibility’ lingers after the duration is spent and act as permanent if used as a ‘While Equipped’ effect

Note: ‘Weak Invisibility’ is not by itself sufficient to trigger backstabs.

Edited August 23, 2020 by NiziNizi

[kjeron]

2 hours ago, NiziNizi said:

As spell itself do not have any direct effect regarding of mentioned bonus for AC and Saves of +4, it is regulated in game by some other way. And that is something I would also like to define 100%.

It's all built into the invisibility opcode/states.

Normal Invisibility: maintains STATE_INVISIBLE, which in turn does the following:

• provides a non-cumulative +4 bonus to your melee attack rolls.
• required for backstabs.
• if your backstab modifier is 2x or more, your attacks will ignore the targets dexterity AC modifier.
• if EA > 30, sprite is completely hidden, including selection/targeting circle.
• other creatures cannot detect you through the "See()" trigger (or through various object selectors), unless they have stat(81) set by op193.
• terminates itself after taking any "hostile" action.

Weak Invisibility: maintains STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY, which in turn does the following:

• provides a non-cumulative +4 bonus to all saving throws.

Improved Invisibility:

• duplicates itself on application, with the duplicate set to provide Normal Invisibility.
• otherwise identical to Weak Invisibility.

Either invisibility STATE provides the following (unless the other creature has stat(81) set by op193):

• other creatures suffer a non-cumulative -4 penalty on attack rolls against you (it is NOT an AC bonus, though the outcome is the same).
• other creatures cannot target you with spells or abilities (unless said spell/ability is flagged to allow targeting invisible creatures).  Does not stop forced methods of spellcasting that ignore the normal spellcasting rules.

op47 and op116 will remove any Invisibility, provided they are not blocked.

op136 will only remove Normal Invisibility.

op282 is unrelated to see invisibility.

* I can only test EE mechanics, not originals.

Edited August 24, 2020 by kjeron

[NiziNizi]

Thank you for very detailed input.

So, to clear, 0x00000010 STATE_INVISIBLE provides +4 melee thac0 bonus. After any hostile actions terminates itself (lets now put backstab details aside). So, simply for players, it is "+4 melee to hit bonus on first attack".

0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY provides +4 Bonus to Saves.

By "duplicate", is that reason Spell have both effects for INVISIBILITY-NORMAL, and INVISIBILITY-IMPROVED? I created spell to test, giving it only IMPROVED, but seems like it still works as you say - duplicate. You are not seen until you take hostile action, after that you have Improved Invisibility as it should be.

Further more, because 0x00000010 STATE_INVISIBLE will be gone after hostile action, if you have 0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY, you get +4 Savings as you described for Improved one, and -4 penality on attack rolls against you, as you say, it apply to any STATE that provide invisibility. So Improved Inv. is +4 Saves and +4AC, no matter how game handle it (Protection from Evil for example have effect in spell which clearly set why evil have attack penality, but this is not same).

op193 is always used on creatures which are intended to have natural ability to see invisible. But than why happen I always find in their eqipment op282? If that does nothing, than I simply could remove it (this is spellcasters, not any thief skills for detection).

And I only do work with EE.

Last think - do you want to say "See()" trigger will not be able to see exactly 0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY? For 0x00000010 STATE_INVISIBLE, 0x00400010 STATE_NOT_TARGETABLE surely can't (assuming there is not any other means involved). I ask because after some hostile action you are actually seen, while still you have 0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY.

Edited August 24, 2020 by NiziNizi

[kjeron]

op282 can do a variety of things depending on which stat it's setting, but that one's not associated with seeing invisibility.

34 minutes ago, NiziNizi said:

So Improved Inv. is +4 Saves and +4AC, no matter how game handle it (Protection from Evil for example have effect in spell which clearly set why evil have attack penality, but this is not same).

Actually they are implemented in a very similar manner - both impose an attack roll penalty on their attacker.  For what it's worth, they both modify the +/- value on the "left" side of the displayed attack roll, not the number needed on the "right" side to hit/miss.

34 minutes ago, NiziNizi said:

Last think - do you want to say "See()" trigger will not be able to see exactly 0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY? For 0x00000010 STATE_INVISIBLE, 0x00400010 STATE_NOT_TARGETABLE surely can't (assuming there is not any other means involved). I ask because after some hostile action you are actually seen, while still you have 0x00400000 STATE_IMPROVEDINVISIBILITY.

Yes, sorry, that line should have been under STATE_INVISIBLE, not any invisibility. I've correct the post for others who see it.

Edited August 24, 2020 by kjeron

[CamDawg]

1 hour ago, kjeron said:

* I can only test EE mechanics, not originals.

In the originals those +4 save bonuses are not attached to the improved invisibility state and have to be explicitly invoked via ops 33-37--this is one of the very few places where the EEs added a hardcode. Preventing those bonuses from stacking involved subspell shenanigans in Fixpack.

[subtledoctor]

On 8/23/2020 at 9:05 PM, CamDawg said:

In the originals those +4 save bonuses are not attached to the improved invisibility state and have to be explicitly invoked via ops 33-37--this is one of the very few places where the EEs added a hardcode. Preventing those bonuses from stacking involved subspell shenanigans in Fixpack.

IMHO it would be better to un-hard-code those and apply them via opcode 325, with something like what was done with Spell Deflection (apply a secondary spell when the effect is dispelled, which can remove all effects from the original spell).  It would make Demivrgvs smile, wherever he is.

If you guys are still tinkering with 2.6. 

Also a SetOriginalClass script action.  We have ChangeClass and AddKit, just need one more to achieve maximum flexibility.

Okay I'll see myself out.

 

[Insomniator]

Kind a necroposting...

Some enemy (Dragon,...) can see any type of invisible party member  and even attack without removing illusions

Should a party member have ImpInvisible's  AC and Saving bonuses versus these creatures ?

Edited June 16, 2022 by Insomniator

[Guest Morgoth]

If the illusion doesn't work,

the dragon can attack these people,

why should the enemies of the dragon benefit from the effects of the illusion itself ?

[DavidW]

I think it’s reasonable, at least for dragons. The idea of improved invisibility is that after you’ve attacked, enemies know roughly but not precisely where you are. Dragons have such good senses that they know that even before you attack, as Bilbo Baggins could testify. 
 

It’s not a perfect argument, I concede: after all, dragons can also target you with single-target spells.

[temnix]

I remember reading about a mod or even several different mods that revamped the whole of the invisibility mechanics. I don't remember how they went about this, though. Everyone wants real invisibility, of course. I can think of two ways to implement it without getting into the question of WHO sees what: everybody, just the people with Detect invisibility effect and so on (which is really messy when you look into it).

One is to remove the avatar and foot circle. Include this in invisibility-giving spells and potions and let dispelling spells lift those opcodes along with the rest. This doesn't leave room for individual invisible-seeing, it's an everyone-sees or everyone-doesn't solution. The Detect invisibility effect can be used in the absence of a dispel to let PC attack invisibles, in the form of low-level spells, if the player risks turning on the AI. I have done something like this in "Sniff" as an optional component, a form of blind fighting. The principle is only good for use by the computer, though, where the challenge for the human player is that he really doesn't have anything to attack with the mouse. That would be invisibility in the literal sense, and the AC bonus etc. are just a cherry on top. Perfect, but wouldn't work for the party side, because the computer doesn't see with eyes, and attacks/casting still disrupt the state, avatar or not. The computer can attack characters without foot circles, too. This is not a hopeless method, but something else would be needed for the player side.

The other option in my mind is to furnish invisibility-bestowing whatevers with a spell state and patch all spells and weapons to apply a subspell on the character that uses them instantly, on swinging or at the end of the casting - targeting Self. If the character is in the special state, he is put back into invisibility, so attacking and casting only cause him to pop out for an instant, and probably not even that. Here there is a question of the duration of reapplied invisibility, because it's self-renewing. If an enemy wizard keeps casting and disappearing, his Improved Improv will never end. But a delayed removal in the main spell bundle can be used to put a definite finish to this process. Include a dispel after 60 seconds or what it is for Imp. I., and the party can wait the wizard out, if they can't break the spell before. Besides, in practice fights only last a few rounds anyway. This method would work for both sides, the player and the computer. Now how to make it so that an invisible wizard opening a container phases out again? Container scripts could be patched to look for that spell state and cast the extension on the robber. They are not so quick, and nearby NPC might notice and raise hell before the curtain drops, but that's probably for the better. A touch of realism.

Edited June 17, 2022 by temnix