Curbstomping Firkraag

[Lightbringer]

I recently had an experience that gave me pause on my power-curve strategy for EET.  I don't know that I have particular questions or conclusions, here, but more of an open topic. This is kind of a long analysis of what I experienced, in the hope that someone else looking to balance out an EET/megamod playthrough might find it useful.

Some of you may be familiar with my idea for how to handle the large XP gain in an EET/megamod setup. I have no caps, and no across the board % reductions -- going against recommendations. I know that I'll be outleveling content from mid-BG1 onward until late ToB. To compensate, I enforce multiclassing on all characters (cutting xp in half, but granting the resources and survivability of multiclassing), and use SCS to increase the difficulty of the foes I face.  I also accepted losing my gear in Chateau Irenicus, except for one or two items (a helm I consider iconic for my CHARNAME, and a couple items used in recipes later in BG2).

So far, it has worked rather well. I tend to use a small team for actual adventuring -- sometimes just my CHARNAME, a fighter/monk (Monastic Orders of Faerun), sometimes a couple more -- to keep things interesting. The SCS Tactical Challenges have ensured that larger boss battles are still dynamic and challenging for the whole party. In SCS, the Tactical difficulty level seems to be the sweet spot. I like to win decisively, but with the enemy getting to put up at least a little bit of a fight, first.

I decided to try my hand at the 2 dragons in early BG2. I had just defeated the Shade Lord, and had an easy enough time with it that I thought I might stand a chance against the shadow dragon. She lasted one round. Surprised, I went after Firkraag. He lasted 2 rounds.

I didn't use any cheesy tactics -- other than the fact that both dragons start blue, allowing you to surround them before battle. For Firkraag, I even issued the Challenge. I just completely dominated them both. It actually felt kind of bad.

Both dragons opened with contingencies, creating Protection from Magic Weapons and Spell Deflection. Firkraag added Haste. Dragon Fear was ineffective, from Resist Fear. One of my fighter/mages paused attacking to cast Secret Word, eliminating Spell Deflection. My other Fighter/Mage cast Breach, removing PfMW. Then everyone chopped both dragons to bits. I don't even remember if the Shadow Dragon lasted long enough to do anything else.

Firkraag at least popped off a Dispel Magic, removing most of my buffs and protections. One of my figher/mages suffered from dragon fear, and a hasted Firkraag clawed 50hp out of her 150hp max (approx). A quick remove fear from the Cavalier fixed that, followed by a recast Stoneskin from the Fighter/Mage. Then Firkraag was dead. Adding insult to injury, the 2nd to last blow on him was from the Flail of Ages, removing his haste effect.

What is troubling me is that I don't think simply caving in to an XP reduction would help much. I think my structural choices in team design is what caused such a grave imbalance of power. We are lvl 13 multiclass. All of my team are warriors. The only non-multi is a Paladin -- lvl16. Otherwise, I have a Fighter/Monk (fighter/thief, really), a Ranger/Cleric, a Fighter/Cleric. and 2 Fighter/Mages. I have the resources of a thief, 2 clerics, 2 mages, and 6 fighters.

This meant that:
All of my team had Draw Upon Holy Might on them except the F/Ms (2 clerics, CHARNAME, and an item for the Paladin). This meant Dex scores in the 20s, allowing them to act before the dragons. Full Con bonuses to HPs. Even my "mages" had around 150hp. We all had Prayer and Chant, Emotion Hope, and Protection from Evil.  That led to a +3-7 to saves/attacks/dam/AC (something like that), until dispelled by Firkraag. Due to EET, 2 of my team had natural Str scores of 19 (books from BG1 and NToTSC), the others had 19 and 18/00 (items from mods). All these scores became things like 22 and 23 after Holy Might. 

In order to get to use all those wonderful new items from all the mods, everyone dual wields except the paladin.  This meant that my slowest characters "only" had 7/2 attacks per round. I also opened up full grandmastery to anyone with a warrior class, so we were all at least Master level in our weapons, some moreso. I didn't haste anyone, apply oils of speed, or drink any potions. If I had applied the recommended 25% reduction in XP, we would have lost ... a couple levels? Maybe be level 10 multi instead of 13? I wonder how much of a difference that would have made. I think most of it is structural choices in proficiencies and classes, plus gear.

Our gear was all over the place. I had gone back to BG1 areas to reacquire a couple highly useful items -- namely monk robes from Slow Boat. Thanks to mods, I had access to a few things early. Thalantyr Item Upgrade produces a belt with +3AC, +1Str, and HP Regen, out of the Girdles of Bluntness, Piercing, and Slashing (and a few other things). Normally in BG2, the slashing girdle comes much later, but I found one in Dungeon Crawl. Quick trip up to High Hedge and done. Another mod in BG1 rewarded me with two of the thief rings you normally get in the Underdark. I kept it through the Chateau, making the Thief Gloves from Weimar Item Upgrade way early, via a spare Bracers AC3, also from a mod. I also got a Demon Heart from NTotSC, kept it, and upgraded the Celestial Fury early. 

We all had at least +3 weapons. 2x +5 (Celestial Fury upgraded, and the Warblade of Twilight from Tower of Deception), and the +4 Usuno's blade from WK. Scratch that. The Fighter/Cleric has the Flail of Easthaven -- extremely powerful, but only +2. All but 2 of my weapons are from vanilla BG2. Fighter/Monk -- Celestial Fury and Caelar's blade (SoD equipment mod). Pally -- Warblade of Twilight (mod). Rang/Cle -- Stonefire and Frostreaver axes (both vanilla). Fig/Cle  -- Flail of Ages and Flail of Easthaven (both vanilla). Fig/Mag -- Usuno's Blade and Scarlet Brotherhood Ninja-To (both vanilla). Fig/Mag -- Blade of Roses and Foebane (both vanilla).

What I'm getting at, I think, is that these are all individual options or consequences of an EET Megamod playthrough that -- taken alone -- may not amount to much, but together produce a stupidly powerful and capable party. Of course, that same party also has mostly +1 Protection rings and cloaks, so the power is not universal. I'm still in early BG2, having completed the slavers/sewers, skinners, Jahiera/harpers, d'Arnise, Windspear, and now Imnesvale (plus Dungeon Crawl, Tower of Deception, Ooze Lounge, and Southern Edge mod content). In vanilla, starting out at level 7, I would probably expect to be level 10ish by now, IIRC.

I think I'll continue as I have been, thinking that things won't really start getting more beefy until Spellhold and the Underdark. For dragons, I'm going to up the difficulty in SCS to include tripling the HP. That would have produced a different fight -- possibly dramatically different. Maybe the dragons would have been more interesting if I had chosen 4 of my party to face them (say, leaving behind 1 each of the redundant clerics and mages), instead of the full 6. I wonder at what point the game will "catch up" to me? Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

Edited September 29, 2020 by Lightbringer

[Endarire]

Having played tabletop D&D, sometimes you just go first and win with minimal damage to your side.  I've experienced it sometimes.  You were well-prepared for each fight, and an extra 200-500 HP on these Dragons would have let them last another round or 3?  D&D combat is normally meant as Blitzkrieg more than a Final Fantasy-style back-and-forth tug-of-war.

You likely would have experienced similar things in BG2 had you done some other areas before these guys:  You'd be higher level with better gear, and you'd be more prepared.

What you said effectively amounts to, "Proper preparation prevents poor performance."

[Lightbringer]

Not long before this, I finished the D'Arnise Keep. I was not quite as well geared, but perhaps only one level behind.  I think what made the difference was the number of opponents -- In D'arnise SCS, you have a highly souped up and hasted Tor'gal, a couple Spirit Trolls, a few giant trolls, and a yuan-ti mage -- all of which have the capability to put the hurt on the party. Plus they start out in groups separated from each other. Vast difference to be 6 on 1 surrounding.  Preparation, and anticipating rapid solutions to problems makes a big difference, too. I studied up on how to counter SCS spellcasters (which include dragons, to some degree.)

I've played and DMed D&D for about 20 years now in editions 2, 3, 3.5, 4, and 5. You're right about how getting the jump can end a battle before it really starts. Allowing a tough foe an extra couple turns, though, can actually turn that tide away. Dispel, then wing buffet (that I'm more likely to fail saves against after dispel), and half my party may be unconscious. Good luck saving against the breath weapon, then. Boom, now the battle is a lot more sketchy. With another 400hp or so, that could've easily happened. I'll have to try it and see.

[subtledoctor]

Not trying to harangue you, but to mention some ideas for anyone reading this and having similar thoughts:

I'll say it again: these games are more fun when you are under-leveled and have to scramble to win fights against superior opponents.  Without being too critical (you do you!) I will point out some flaws, or anyway different considerations, about your setup:

1. Your biggest advantage is that you are human, and the enemies are dumb scripted bots.  Getting gobs of levels and equipment massively compounds your advantage, because your human tactics have more to work with.  Reducing your XP and gold forces you to rely more on your own tactics and gameplay, which is the best part of the game.

 2. Mods that increase difficulty are very uneven.  Even DavidW, who has made the best enemy AI mod out there, often says that the enemies in these games are woefully unintelligent and the best scripts in the world cannot really overcome that.  It's just a limitation of the ancient game engine.  So you will tend not to achieve the idea of "I'll be more powerful, and the enemies will also be more powerful."  It may happen sometimes, but it will tend to drift in one of two directions: enemies who are supposed to be powerful will be disappointingly easy, or enemies will be annoyingly invulnerable (which is very different from "satisfyingly challenging").  I can't stand it when fights are disappointingly easy. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time.  (I just played through Nalia's keep without Improved TorGal, and I don't know why I even bothered.)

Slowing down your own power curve is, IMHO, both easier and more often successful in making the games challenging and fun. 

3. You say you have all multiclasses in order to reduce your power, bu in reality it massively increases your power.  Just look at your example: after attacking Firkraag's protections, you had six high-level warriors, each with multiple high-power weapons and proficiencies tuned for maximum DPS (almost everyone dual-wielding) who could reduce a dragon to zero HP in a single round with nothing but physical attacks.  My current party is mostly single-classed: a F->D, two fighters, a bard, a C/T and a C->M.  If I breached the dragon's defenses I would only have about 2.5 warriors able to dish out damage (maybe 2 and 2 halves, if you add the bard).  That simply wouldn't be enough to take him down, which means he could wing buffet and then pop more contingencies and sequencers and stay in the fight long enough to make it interesting.  if I brought enough melee power to bear to take him down as quickly as you, I maybe wouldn't have enough magical backup to get through his defenses.  (Though it's a bit odd he only popped PfMW and Deflection... doesn't he usually employ more defenses than that?)

4. Stay away from mod weapons.  They can be fun and interesting, but they tend to make the game a cakewalk without engaging the most fun part, i.e. that use of tactics and human ingenuity.  As time goes on I have found myself installing fewer and fewer item packs. 

5. Over-optimization is bad.  Not only do you have six perfectly optimized individuals, they are very clearly meant to operate as a perfectly optimized party.  That's interesting and even necessary for people who haven't played the games much, but as you play more and more, it makes everything easy.  I've mentioned elsewhere, I highly highly recommend playing with themed parties.  Everyone must be an elf!  Everyone must be part thief!  Everyone must be part cleric!  Everyone must be a ranger or druid! (That one's easier with my mod that allows more druid multiclasses.)  IWDEE is great for this sort of thing; it's a bit tougher to squeeze a themed party into BG2/EET, though not impossible.   This kind of game removes your old crutches and use different tools to get through the game.  It really adds new spice into the games.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I agree with subtledoctor's estimation.

10 hours ago, Lightbringer said:

With another 400hp or so, that could've easily happened. I'll have to try it and see.

It doesn't need to be a random 400 hit points, just your avarage damage output per turn. In BG1 start that's about 1 * 0.5 * 1d8 * character in party... so anywhere from 4 to 12 hit points.

In ToB, that's about 10 * 0.75 * 1d8+5 * characters in party, so that's 70 hit points per character(67.5), with 6 characters, it's 405 hit points, per turn. 10 comes from max amount of attacks per turn, 0.75 comes from AC - Thac0 intergral, and the 1d8 +5(or just plain 9) comes from avarage attack damage. +STR bonuses, other modifications like spells etc. but yes, this is with the Improved Haste, which is why the max attacks per round is 10 instead of 5... but ToB warriors have the whorlwind HLA.

PS, there's a mod that I made that makes the monsters have a lot of hitpoints somewhere... EDIT: Here... it's a choise to use it. And you can edit it as you want it.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[Lightbringer]

Thanks for the replies so far. @subtledoctor, no haranguing received at all. In fact, some of ours (and a few other people's) conversations on this sort of topic are exactly why I posted it. These dragon fights, for the first time, made me seriously question the viability of my strategy for power curve management. Your counter-ideas are very valuable. As you indicated, this is a good discussion for others who might try a pile-it-on kind of EET game. 

I have a lot to consider. For sure, this party is very highly optimized. I thought about a vanilla group, say, Minsc, Jaheira, Nalia, Keldorn, and Yoshimo. Only Minsc and Keldorn are offering decent melee, but they're going to get quickly worn down by dragon claws. You have one healer in Jaheira. Her silly club specialization isn't helping with it's 1d6+7ish. Nalia is spell support, but weak as a kitten. Yoshimo is dragon food in melee, so he's using a crummy shortbow, until he gets his first taste of dragon breath and loses some 80% of his health.

Two of my most fond memories of BG2/ToB are the rush of power when you emerge from the Chateau -- items and XP that were unheard of in BG1 get thrown at you like party favors straight off -- and the godlike levels of invincibility that my Monk CHARNAME possessed by the end -- and yet still that final fight was difficult.

I love getting stuff in these games. I love treasure. I love seeing that power curve grow. At the same time, I want my foes to put up a fight. My current power level compared to vanilla is probably on the early to mid-ToB side (though lack of 8th and 9th level spells and HLAs make quite the difference).  The difficulty curve felt just right in BG1, with NTotSC and DSotSC. I predicted early BG2 would be a bit of a slump period, where the game would be a little too easy. This playthrough is an experiment to see if I can create an non-cakewalk game while still enjoying the rocket power curve.

This isn't a defeat, but a new challenge. I think what made the dragon battles not work for my game was twofold: lack of bonus dragon HP to compensate for high damage output, and too many characters. I underestimated the output potential of my full 6-man party. Going ahead, I'll avoid using my whole party for just about anything. I'll revisit that much later, but it should hold for most of BG2. I already use only 1-3 characters to explore. I wonder how things like TDD will compare?

I can appreciate the appeal of the kind of game you describe, Subtledoctor, but I don't usually go for it. My ideal difficult battle flow is this: I start out strong, get hit with a setback or three, have to reconfigure a strategy to overcome, I overcome, I destroy the opposition. The outcome is never really in question, just what kind of work do I have to put in to achieve it. Maybe one of these days I'll give your idea a try. I just know I tend to get frustrated or demoralized when nearly every fight could kill me.

My battle strategies are what I've heard called "warheads on foreheads." I don't really do a lot of super clever debuffing spellcasty stuff. Buff my warriors, soften with some damaging spells, and charge in with blades. Very unsubtle and, frankly, unsophisticated -- not really suited to a "getting by on my wits/I can't believe I won that" kind of party. There's a reason I made everyone multiclass as a fighter, so they could still contribute to the "real" fighting

I think leaving my party as is, using only 4 of them, and giving the dragons triple HP, would have resulted in a very satisfying challenge for what I'm trying to do.

 

[Lightbringer]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

(Though it's a bit odd he only popped PfMW and Deflection... doesn't he usually employ more defenses than that?)

Those two were the ones that jumped out at me, as they were the ones I needed to counter to continue my assault. I did notice he was hasted, as well.

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

It may happen sometimes, but it will tend to drift in one of two directions: enemies who are supposed to be powerful will be disappointingly easy, or enemies will be annoyingly invulnerable (which is very different from "satisfyingly challenging").  I can't stand it when fights are disappointingly easy. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. 

Can't agree more.  I'm still trying to find that balance. It's tough when my goal is also to "pile on all the stuff."    I'm still not convinced those two are mutually exclusive, though!

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

(I just played through Nalia's keep without Improved TorGal, and I don't know why I even bothered.)

Why is that?  I really enjoyed Improved TorGal (with my super party). Was it too hard or too easy? You have a very differently designed party than I do, so I could see too hard. Then again, you also employ a lot of those very clever tactics that I don't, so I could see it being too easy.
 

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

without

<forehead slap>  Reading comprehension is good, boys and girls. My bad, I agree wholeheartedly

[Lightbringer]

Okay, I loaded my pre-Firkraag save and walked directly up to him in formation, unbuffed, and initiated combat. This is my full team, but no careful strategy ( even by my low standards), no buffs.  SCS is on Tactical, so normal HP, but dragons have contingencies and sequencers, and cast their spells instantly as innates.
 

Firkraag : Spell sequencer: Dispel Magic, Haste, Spell Deflection. (I guess PfMW was just the Shadow Dragon)
Dragon Fear pops.
His first action is Lower Fire Resistance on my F/M -- possibly targeting my lowest HP character.

Only my CHARNAME fails the save vs dragon fear. Now my Pally breaks combat to cast remove fear.

As my CHARNAME is fleeing, Firkraag takes a swipe and hits for a sixth of her HP. Of note, she has the highest AC of the group by far, at -16, and Firkraag hits by rolling a 6 on the die.

Two more hits on CHARNAME and she retreats to drink a potion. Firkraag starts tearing into next near character, that F/M who's resist is lowered.
Fire breath. OUCH. CHARNAME has 90% Fire resist so she's okay. My least resistant character, the paladin, takes 80 something points of damage. Everyone gets knocked down by 1/3 or so.

Low hit rolls from party. First melee hit. Firkraag contingincy Stoneskin.

Well, now I need to deal with that. I go ahead and do Secret Word to remove Deflection, and Breach. Thanks to two mages, they go off simultaneously. Now, Haste is gone too.
Note: Ancient Red Dragons hit easily and hit hard. The F/M who got her fire resist lowered dies to 4 claw attacks. Poor Fade.

A couple more attacks land on Firkraag. He casts Stoneskin again. Now that one of my mages is dead, only one remains to Breach, and she's the one who did so last time. I successfully cast my last breach on Firkraag, removing his stoneskin. He turns his ire on her now. CHARNAME has had enough dart throwing out of reach (high APR, plus STR and mastery means they do good damage), so she wades back into melee.

As we land more blows, Firkraag tears my last F/M  to ribbons. Nalia goes down.

Firkraag is now near death.

One more hit from Tyris Flare, and Firkraag is down. So are two of my characters.

Tyris, my Rang/Cle, casts raise dead on Fade. Meanwhile, Isra chooses a highly inappropriate time to engage in a flirt. I tell her to mind her manners and use her Blessed Bracers to resurrect Nalia.
She does so, and Nalia immediately flirts with me, and more concerned about getting her blood on my clothes than the fact she just died. (Yes, I'm multi-romancing, get over it :P)

Amber, my F/C, casts Heal on Fade, and now the two who got killed are the healthiest in the party. Dragon is dead, and we are alive.

...

That was a much more interesting fight. Maybe going in full party, but unbuffed is a better strategy.
 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lightbringer

[Endarire]

FYI, Super Firkraag and BuTcHeRy specifically increase the difficulty of Firkraag and the surrounding area.

Also, one of the reasons I quit BGII once was because of the continuous need to manually buff 6 party members before each fight.  The only time I beat BGII and ToB was with a Kensai dualed to Mage who relied a lot on autoattacking just to make fights go faster.  My favorite buffs are stoneskin, mirror image, and haste since they're generally useful and low enough level to spam in BGII.

[subtledoctor]

Oh yeah, that’s another one: don’t buff. Don’t buff too much, anyway. I generally give myself two rounds for buffing - so usually ~3 of my party members cast two spells each. (Usually 2 of the 6 spells are party-wide, and 4 of them are personal defenses. So in my recent fight it was Bless/Emotion Hope for the party, Barkskin for Keto and Jaheira, Blur for Keto, and SR Clairvoyance for Charname.)

And that’s only for fights where buffing makes sense. I buffed before the slaver compound, Torgal, and Maevar; but did not buff at all before fighting Galvarey or the jerks in the sewer.

Edited October 3, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Lightbringer]

6 hours ago, Endarire said:

FYI, Super Firkraag and BuTcHeRy specifically increase the difficulty of Firkraag and the surrounding area.

That BuTcHeRy mod looks right up my alley. I'll have to give it a go on my next playthrough. Thanks for the tip.