The instructions of EET are very misleading

[Alonso]

54 minutes ago, Cahir said:

Me

When you said elsewhere that you are not a power gamer it made me smile. But when you said now that you're a casual gamer it really made me laugh.

[Jarno Mikkola]

36 minutes ago, Cahir said:

You know Jarno, that wasn't do hard to edit. I just change couple of values, I actually did not write any code, because I don't know how to do it. 

Well, still, you did know what a .tpa file is, and with what program to open it to view it, and magically found a place to add text into it. You sure you are typical mod user ? Cause if that's a thing, we don't need any of the mods hosted here in the site. After all, we can all do them with ease.

Now, that's not to say that you are professional coder, thing is, you don't need to, as most of us are not. I am not either, and I have made a few mods, and there's a large un-announced and never to be released mod in the background that no one knows about a lot, but I have made trials for I have the inclination, just like you seem to possess. There's no levels in it.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Jarno Mikkola

[Alonso]

6 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well, still, you did know what a .tpa file is, and with what program to open it to view it, and magically found a place to add text into it. You sure you are typical mod user ? Cause if that's a thing, we don't need any of the mods hosted here in the site. After all, we can all do them with ease.

Yeah, this sudden determination of some modders to hide their skills and knowledge is most amusing

[Cahir]

39 minutes ago, Alonso said:

Yeah, this sudden determination of some modders to hide their skills and knowledge is most amusing

Well, I don't think there is a point discussing it with you further giving your attitude. Don't like the tools that are available to you, don't use it. Simple. 

[Cahir]

50 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Well, still, you did know what a .tpa file is, and with what program to open it to view it, and magically found a place to add text into it. You sure you are typical mod user ? Cause if that's a thing, we don't need any of the mods hosted here in the site. After all, we can all do them with ease.

Now, that's not to say that you are professional coder, thing is, you don't need to, as most of us are not. I am not either, and I have made a few mods, and there's a large un-announced and never to be released mod in the background that no one knows about a lot, but I have made trials for I have the inclination, just like you seem to possess. There's no levels in it.

Jarno, did you ever mod a game (any game) blindly? Without doing a research how to mod or which mods are worth installing? If you do it regularly, it means you have sufficient programming experience to figure out how to mod any game without guidance. I'm not that person. I always do at least couple hours of research to properly prepare myself for installation process. Even installing a simple WeiDU mod can be difficult for someone who did not use a mod in his entire life. 

[jastey]

4 hours ago, Alonso said:

Maybe you should make up your mind about this. In the thread I linked to in the first post you said very negative things about the EET Mod Install Tool (when I talked about reputed members of the community I was thinking specifically about you). Just like with PI, there are clearly other players who managed to install their mods fine by using the EET Mod Install Tool. Still, I'm sure you agree with me that there was a need for you to give that warning. Hadn't you done so I would have happily installed all my mods with that tool, which would have certainly led to nasty consequences for me. By taking a few minutes to warn everybody, you probably saved myself and others countless wasted hours and headaches, and I really appreciate that.

My sentence was addressed to your words about PI only, I should have pointed that out. EDIT: rereading what I wrote I think this is quite clear. Why are you setting what I said into the wrong context? EDIT2: I get what you wrote now. Let's put it like this: I don't think your "criticism" of PI is any way constructive, and therefore it's not helpful.

I fully support the idea of mentioning the downs about the EE Setup Tool, but as I said - not everyone is around all the time to update readmes, and also that not all people feel the same way about the topic (saying this without any judgement or implications of any kind).

[Alonso]

26 minutes ago, jastey said:

I don't think your "criticism" of PI is any way constructive, and therefore it's not helpful.

How is my criticism of PI any less constructive than your criticism of Roxanne's tool? About the PI tool I've said several times that it works for me, that the main problem is the lack of documentation, and I have volunteered to do all the work to fix the problem myself. I'd say that's much more constructive than what you said about Roxanne's tool.

 

30 minutes ago, jastey said:

update readmes

As I told you earlier, this is not a problem of outdated readmes. Jarno explained how this is a problem of a readme that presents things that are hoped to happen in the future as though they were happening in the present.

[Alonso]

1 hour ago, Cahir said:

Well, I don't think there is a point discussing it with you further giving your attitude. Don't like the tools that are available to you, don't use it. Simple. 

You were caught lying. Oh, well, it happens. Don't take it so bad.

[Ulb]

2 hours ago, Alonso said:

Nope, that's not my argument.

Quote

Project Infinity is too difficult to use for the vast majority of gamers. Only super advanced power gamers with some programming knowledge (like myself) can make PI work, and even for them it's very difficult.

Yeah that's your argument.

As for my coding experience; it is literally none existent. Most of my mods are either kit mods (which basically use a fixed blue print) or involve mostly animation ports which also require very little coding. If of course your definition of 'some coding experience' includes everyone capable of looking up stuff online for 5 minutes, then yeah, maybe you need 'programming knowledge' to use PI (or do anything else besides breathing).

 

*edit*

Before anyone goes after my use of 'literally' I would like to point out that the Oxford dictionary now allows it to be used like that.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Ulb

[jastey]

15 minutes ago, Alonso said:

How is my criticism of PI any less constructive than your criticism of Roxanne's tool?

You wrote:

Quote

Project Infinity: In most cases it simply doesn't work. Project Infinity is too difficult to use for the vast majority of gamers. Only super advanced power gamers with some programming knowledge (like myself) can make PI work, and even for them it's very difficult. Other gamers who try to use PI just manage to waste their time and get frustrated.

That's very general and unspecific and therefore not constructive.

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, Cahir said:

Jarno, did you ever mod a game (any game) blindly? Without doing a research how to mod or which mods are worth installing? If you do it regularly, it means you have sufficient programming experience to figure out how to mod any game without guidance.

No. I usually use my prior knowledge on the games engine that gives a lot of experience in it... and who the *** starts making mods to a game without searching the games name from the internet with "mod" as another search term. That usually should end you up in a site that you can use to download a mod or two and see in what state those are in, so you are not blind.

1 hour ago, Cahir said:

Even installing a simple WeiDU mod can be difficult for someone who did not use a mod in his entire life. 

Yeah, but the point is you are not that person either, when it comes to BG2 moding.

PS: Ouh, what's WeiDU ?

44 minutes ago, Ulb said:

If of course your definition of 'some coding experience' includes everyone capable of looking up stuff online for 5 minutes, then yeah, maybe you need 'programming knowledge' to use PI

 You would be surpriced on how blind you become when you have no idea what you do, while you don't look stuff from the internet.

And if it wasn't clear why I pointed about the post account, it's about the experience you have with the forum, that is directly related on how much of it you have read. As posting up to 5 posts, doesn't likely need very much through forum knowledge. At least from a person like me.

1 hour ago, Alonso said:

Jarno explained

That wasn't the point of the post... it wasn't from the readme, but a quote from a 2016 post that was about the state of that times EET, that is still pinned and all that. The quoted content posts have a link to the original post. Well, unless you remove or use a non-direct quote.

[Alonso]

1 hour ago, Ulb said:

As for my coding experience; it is literally none existent. Most of my mods are either kit mods (which basically use a fixed blue print) or involve mostly animation ports which also require very little coding. If of course your definition of 'some coding experience' includes everyone capable of looking up stuff online for 5 minutes, then yeah, maybe you need 'programming knowledge' to use PI (or do anything else besides breathing).

Seriously, when somebody catches you lying but proposes to forget about it's best to accept the proposal. Insisting on the lying doesn't really help you much.

[Alonso]

5 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

That wasn't the point of the post... it wasn't from the readme, but a quote from a 2016 post that was about the state of that times EET, that is still pinned and all that

Looks like I misunderstood you before, I thought you meant that the recommendation to use PI was based on the hope that it would become usable for more people in the future. Thank you for clarifying. Anyway, it doesn't change the problem that the instructions recommend a tool that is impossible to use for most people.

[Cahir]

3 hours ago, Alonso said:

You were caught lying. Oh, well, it happens. Don't take it so bad.

You are very quick to call other posters liars. As I explained at Beamdog's one can be both a power gamer and a casual player. So, no, I was not lying here. Believe it or not, but I didn't even finish BG2EE (w/o mods) to this day, not to mention SoD (so I'm very much casual BG player - my pseudo-modder talk doesn't change anything in this regard). But I always try to role-play my characters, so I'm definitely no power gamer.

Look, PI is really not that difficult to use. The main problem is a lack of proper documentation that would explain the whole set-up process in detail. In my case all I needed is to get a few guidelines here and there from @AL|ENand I was good to go. I was stuck once or twice only because F.A.Q was not specific here and there and sometimes a bit of misleading.

I know you offered to help writing a documentation to@AL|EN. There is probably a reason why this offer remained unanswered, but I don't have a clue what might it be.

[DavidW]

4 hours ago, Ulb said:

Before anyone goes after my use of 'literally' I would like to point out that the Oxford dictionary now allows it to be used like that.

That doesn’t mean we have to like it.