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The instructions of EET are very misleading


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Thanks everyone for showing common sense and words of support. I really appreciate that.

@Alonso

Most of my reply is at Beamdog forums. Here, let me reply to you regarding your 'feedback':

- you didn't specify which parts of the PI are 'difficult to use' and how to improve them

- you didn't specify which parts of the GUI causing confusion and how to improve them

- you claim that only 'super advanced power gamers with some programming knowledge' can use PI but when casual users oppose, you said that they have lied

- you didn't even provide an alternative way of how EET could suggest the usage of other installation tools whit the fair warring that 'it might be harder than launching setup-eet.exe'

If you were honestly concerned about 'players being frustrated by PI', you would create your own guide/faq/thread ! Why you didn't do it? So much for your 'honest concern'.

You can say what you want about PI but if you do it like that, don't expect that you will be treated seriously.

 

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On 10/31/2020 at 11:10 PM, AL|EN said:

you didn't specify which parts of the PI are 'difficult to use' and how to improve them

Have you actually read my posts at all? I have done just that several times. For the umpteenth time, the way I have suggested to improve them is to write understandable documentation that explains how they work.

On 10/31/2020 at 11:10 PM, AL|EN said:

you claim that only 'super advanced power gamers with some programming knowledge' can use PI but when casual users oppose, you said that they have lied

No casual player has ever participated in this discussion. Casual players don't even use this forum. The only person that has claimed to be a casual player is Cahir, and we all know he is not.

On 10/31/2020 at 11:10 PM, AL|EN said:

you didn't even provide an alternative way of how EET could suggest the usage of other installation tools whit the fair warring that 'it might be harder than launching setup-eet.exe'

I don't even know what this means.

On 10/31/2020 at 11:10 PM, AL|EN said:

If you were honestly concerned about 'players being frustrated by PI', you would create your own guide/faq/thread ! Why you didn't do it? So much for your 'honest concern'.

I already have, as you perfectly know. It's not very honest to say that I haven't.

On 10/31/2020 at 11:10 PM, AL|EN said:

You can say what you want about PI but if you do it like that, don't expect that you will be treated seriously.

I wrote dozens of posts in the Beamdog forums encouraging you to do things better in a very friendly manner, but you just ignored most of them. At some point I just had to accept that it was not going to happen and the best I could do was to warn others of what PI really is.

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@Alonso

So you posted some general 'make documentation better' request, right? And when I didn't do what you wanted me to do, you felt justified to go for a rant across the forums? Because I didn't immediately throw my plans and dedicated my life to improving the documentation? Apparently, those were 'questions' which I should answer immediately. Right now I'm certain that ANY kind of docs improvements would still not satisfy you at the end.

 

The 'guide' which you posted has outdated information and was worthless. I didn't ignore your feedback, it was just worthless. Kapish?

Why stops here anyway? There is SHS, BWL, sorcerers.net, baldursgate.fandom.com and reddit.com/r/baldursgate  - you could post you valuable feedback all around! Just like Roxanne did.

Now, you are claiming that I 'ignored the player's feedback' and accusing me of 'deceive the community'. I have nothing more to say to you.

Edited by AL|EN
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59 minutes ago, AL|EN said:

...

I believe this to be the wrong way to do this.

@Alonso, what you should do is to just start creating that documentation, place it in a forum and then support that thread in the place and people will ask questions and then just answer them as you can. Eventually you will have your final documantation that will likely help people that find it, and people will do that by them being directed to the place you build it in, by others that have used it.

The begining will be some hassle, that you will hopefully overcome with the support of the forum moderators, as they can transfer post between a "comment thread" and the guide thread and so forth, if you would like that. I know, I did this to the FAQs for Megamod thread, the very old topic I hosted in SHSforums, it being ten years old now, having had all the relevant old info about moding the non EE games etc.

58 minutes ago, AL|EN said:

you could post you valuable feedback all around! Just like Roxanne did.

All I can say is that this petty quarrel you have with people is the reason why people move away from helping you. They could help you, seriously, but you would need a little more... hands off approach, I would describe it as, but I am not sure that's adequate for it.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola
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Magma:

Exactly because of that. People did crazy things with mod archives. The moment when the 'extraction' feature won't successfully extract every mod on this planet people will complain. And I would have to write special code to handle that one specific mod, like BWS did for 40+ mods = 24/7 support.

You can avoid manual extraction via two ways:

- mods hosted at GitHub are already extracted so when you download them via PI, you will get files and folders right away (and mod updates)

- if the mod is distributed via .iemod package, PI supports extracting it via double-click because I know exactly what is .iemod package and I can react to it

EDIT: Include this inside PI FAQ

Edited by AL|EN
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58 minutes ago, AL|EN said:

- mods hosted at GitHub are already extracted so when you download them via PI, you will get files and folders right away (and mod updates)

Hows this so ? Don't you download a .zip archive file. As in, it's not extracted. You programed this into PI !

Now, that's not the same thing as a mod archive file... but the language used should clarify that distinction. AS in, DO NOT USE "already extracted" because they are NOT ! They are in a format useful for PI, but that's it's own thing.

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28 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Hows this so ? Don't you download a .zip archive file. As in, it's not extracted. You programed this into PI !

Now, that's not the same thing as a mod archive file... but the language used should clarify that distinction. AS in, DO NOT USE "already extracted" because they are NOT ! They are in a format useful for PI, but that's it's own thing.

Oh lord, I really tried to understand this. But I failed. This definitely means I'm no power gamer 😂

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@Alonso

When you have bad mood and decide to go for a rant, don't expect to be threaten lightly. I have plenty of time exposing you crap.

1. You accusing me of 'deceive the community' which is a really disgusting move from your side. All I did is created a mod manager to the best of my effort and put it available to use for everybody.

2. You claim that only 'super-advanced power gamers with some programming knowledge' can use PI
When casual users oppose, you said that they have lied. It's clear that your own opinion on this matter is more important than the opinion of people who use PI directly! It's no matter how many people will tell you that you are wrong, you won't change your mind. You need to ignore their opinions for justification of your rant.

3. You accusing me of I 'ignored the player's feedback'
There are plenty of examples when I include feedback either inside FAQ or even changed the way how PI works. Och, you don't see it, right? How can you since all you do is you mumble about 'docs being confusing' instead of actually creating the program itself?

4. You accusing me of 'ignoring my feedback'
The examples of 'questions' which you posted were not answered directly to you because of already included INSIDE FAQ! Looks like you require some special treatment like "Answer my questions or else..." I don't feel obligated to you with special care which apparently you expected!

And after all of this, you are quoting my own replies when apparently I INCLUDED YOUR FEEDBACK! What the hell is wrong with you?
 

Spoiler

My guide is not a copy of ALIEN's posts. ALIEN's posts are a copy of my guide. So if the first posts of this thread have been helpful to you in any way, maybe you should thank me. It was I who wrote most of them. So why did ALIEN use my work but never listed my name in those acknowledgments you so much dislike? No idea, ask him.

So now you claim that all PI docs were a copy of yours?!?] Tell me, which comes first: my first post with instructions or your post with doc file? Yes, there are some sentences that were used, but to claim that my entire docs are based on your guide is a joke!

Alonso, you are the best example of a troll, who claims that is trying to be helpful by 'telling people how shitty things are'. All you did is posted you 'harmful and non-constructive opinions' about PI which will damage its reputation forever. Now, it doesn't matter if the PI will be redesigned, docs would be improved because people will remember only the nasty things which you have spread and won't check the new version. I hope that you are proud of yourself.


 

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1 hour ago, AL|EN said:

4. You accusing me of 'ignoring my feedback'
The examples of 'questions' which you posted were not answered directly to you because of already included INSIDE FAQ! Looks like you require some special treatment like "Answer my questions or else..." I don't feel obligated to you with special care which apparently you expected!

And after all of this, you are quoting my own replies when apparently I INCLUDED YOUR FEEDBACK! What the hell is wrong with you?

It seems you have a hard time of giving any sort of credit. As when you do, you give it with hostility. Accusing others of being a troll, when all they wanted was giving feedback. Well... As you got to remember, they are also themselves a user.

1 hour ago, AL|EN said:

'harmful and non-constructive opinions'

But you agreed by answering some of the questions asked; That made things better. Which is the exact opposite of what you said here.

Like said, this is no way of going about it correctly. I myself don't know which it would be of course, so there's that, my syphathize go out for you, but there's also subtlety that is of consern.

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@AL|EN I like your work. But people who do an installation once a year or twice in four struggles with PI. Especially when they have no IT Background or do how techs think.

I know IE Games very well. I like Testing if something  goes wrong, well i try again. Most people lack the time and will to do so.

@Alonso I am a Casual Player and my last programm was written under Dos. Yeah, i' m old. So PI is useable with try and error. The EET Tool Setup is only for EEs. Both Tools have good and bad pieces. If people want a faithfull expericence, they have to go with PI. The Setup Tool is Roxannes World.  I do like her? devotion and accrieby. The change of others peoples Work without consent is a nogo.

Pleased excuse the poor english.

 

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For what it's worth, I'm not a coder, and I had a great experience with PI. Much thanks to Alien for his work. 

There are many varieties of mod users. When I first started modding IE games, it was EasyTuTu.  I didn't know a WeiDU from from an SCS. I think, maybe, I also used an NPC (Finch) and the NPC Project. Pretty basic stuff. EET really isn't meant for mod users of that level.

EET is an advanced mod. The BWS was even more so (from what I gather -- before my time). It had a really honkin' big PDF guide to make it work.  Frankly, I'm very glad that tools like PI or EET Setup Tool (faults aside) exist to help smooth things over a little. A beginning modder will absolutely face challenges trying to blend together a megamod EET setup. A more experienced modder can craft a wonderfully customized experience.

Finally, I will note that continued accusations of lying in lieu of dialogue reveal much about a poster and their intentions.

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I don't know what Alonso wants, tbh.

I mean, yeah, you don't get a EET install in a breeze using PI. You have to find and read documentation for every single mod, you have to find data on which mods conflict with each other and double-check if the data is still up-to-date and valid. And then, you test a lot. Most "casual players" will be frustrated by all that and will stop trying to assemble a EET build halfways.

But that's not the fault of PI being so complicated. It's not complicated. I'm not a modder, I'm not a programmer, I never had any business with infinity mods beyond installing old BGT once back when Westley Weimer was making mods and "Tactics" and "Big Picture" were all the rage. I wished I were a modder. I'd fix the issue with Kivan's bow, Kivan's proficiencies and with fate spirits not summoning most of the modded characters in TOB portion myself if I was one, but unfortunately I'm not. The only head starts I have is patience and having used computers since before Windows 95.

PI is a simple tool with a handful of functions. It's not easy to do a mega-install with this simple tool - it's much more difficult than it used to be with BWS. But it's easier than doing it by hand completely.

I mean, sure, they could write: "Warning! Installing many mods is hard, frustrating and time-consuming", but it's not like the user won't find this one out quite soon anyway.

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The big difference, as I understand it, is that the new tools don't require a maintainer. The ease of the old BWS tool required a constant maintainer to update all the links, repositories, and compatibility info. It was a beauty to use, but required an insane amount of continuous work on the back end. The maintainer getting burned out and retiring from the modding scene is what led to EET Setup Tool and PI in the first place. PI, in particular, eschews the ease created by a maintainer -- transferring that burden onto the user -- in order to ensure that the community would be absent a reliable tool any time a load-bearing pillar of the community retires. It's a trade off.

As you said , it's not that PI is complicated. In fact, it's building a heavily modded EET that's complicated.

Edited by Lightbringer
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