SubtleMods: 5E Spellcasting Rules Conversion

[v1ld]

@subtledoctor I've been looking at your SoB Score Based Bonus spell (component 201) and SBO: Ability Score Bonus Spells for 5E-Style Casting (2012/2013).  Both of these are very nice indeed and I wish I'd looked at SoB in detail before finalizing my load order.  Those score base bonuses would go very nicely with the PnP memorization tables I'm using for Mage, Cleric, Bard and the IWD tables I'm using for Ranger and Paladin.

SCS takes literal hours to install because I'm running on Steam Deck/Arch Linux with the Proton compatibility layer and that slows down all the file operations, so I don't want to do another install if I can help.  So: do you think I could safely install SoB's 201 and 2013 (ability score bonuses increase casting slots but do not increase memorization slots) after SCS?  Almost certainly not a good idea, but I thought I'd ask since those components look perfect.

My current load order is here and the relevant bits are:

• IWDification
• Rogue Rebalancing
• 5E Spellcasting (1.11 from GitHub on 11/1/22)
• Tweaks Anthology
• SCS
• SoB 201 + 2013 here?

Would you also please consider either including those SoB options in 5E itself in some future update or calling them out more directly in the 5E docs?   These options go very well together with 5E.

All of this is just micro-optimization on my part, to be clear - I'm already very happy with the mod as it stands now!  Cheers.

[subtledoctor]

2 minutes ago, v1ld said:

So: do you think I could safely install SoB's 201 and 2013 (ability score bonuses increase casting slots but do not increase memorization slots) after SCS?  Almost certainly not a good idea, but I thought I'd ask since those components look perfect.

You totally can, and it will probably be fine. In fact lately I've been installing all of Scales of Balance after SCS.

  It might make sense to install those two SoB component very near the end of your install, so that you can remove them if you don't end up liking it.

2 minutes ago, v1ld said:

Would you also please consider either including those SoB options in 5E itself in some future update

I almost did, but the problem is that 5E casting is generally installed before CDTweaks, and most people change their spell tables in CDTweaks. And this really needs to be installed after any spell table changes. Before 5E casting existed I used to have the ability score bonus spells component in both Tome & Blood and Scales of Balance. Whenever it needed an update I would just update it in both places. But people kept having install order problems. Now I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that a component should only live in one single mod, and it should be the mod that is most install-order-appropriate.

Edited November 5, 2022 by subtledoctor

[v1ld]

6 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

You totally can, and it will probably be fine. In fact lately I've been installing all of Scales of Balance after SCS.

  It might make sense to install those two SoB component very near the end of your install, so that you can remove them if you don't end up liking it.

That's great to hear!  Going to experiment with those later today.

7 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I almost did, but the problem is that 5E casting is generally installed before CDTweaks, and most people change their spell tables in CDTweaks. And this really needs to be installed after any spell table changes. Before 5E casting existed I used to have the ability score bonus spells component in both Tome & Blood and Scales of Balance. Whenever it needed an update I would just update it in both places. But people kept having install order problems. Now I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that a component should only live in one single mod, and it should be the mod that is most install-order-appropriate.

Makes sense.  There's no easy solution to this and having code live in one place is a big deal.  Maybe a pointer to these 2 SoB components in the 5E README would help?  You talk about the other UnearthedArcana mods, but I don't think you mention these options in SoB.

Cheers.

[subtledoctor]

Sure, that's a good idea.

[v1ld]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

the problem is that 5E casting is generally installed before CDTweaks, and most people change their spell tables in CDTweaks

@subtledoctor  Does this imply that 5E casting gets the base memorization/casts table from override/mxspl* at runtime?   So if one were to swap mxsplwiz.2da or mxsplprs.2da, 5E casting would pick up those changes on the next game start?

Just wondering how much can be done without reinstalling the mod, really.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, v1ld said:

Does this imply that 5E casting gets the base memorization/casts table from override/mxspl* at runtime?

1. Casting slots are determined at install time
2. Memorization slots are determined at runtime
3. Ability score-based bonuses are determined at install time AND they only work perfectly if they know what the spell table is at install time.

#3 means you really should not change the spell table after installing ability score-based bonuses. Memorization slots will naturally adjust, but the stat-based bonuses may get (slightly) out of whack.

Edited November 6, 2022 by subtledoctor

[v1ld]

Thanks!  That's really helpful.  I think I'll do one more reinstall, hours of SCS or not, now that I have a better appreciation for how this all fits together.  Your recommendation in SoB as to options to use is spot on, of course - wish I'd read up on SoB earlier.

Going to use 5E's items only give memorization slots with SoB's 201 + 2013's ability scores give only casting slots - exactly as you recommend in SoB.  That makes a lot of sense.

Also going to use a cap of 5 at any level just like you do for the tables in 5E - that makes a lot of sense.  The vanilla cleric progression with 9 would be too many memorization slots - your caps are way better.  Do want the PnP bard table in Rogue Rebalancing that gives up to 2x 8th-level spells at level 40, but I'll cap every level at 5 spells like you tables do instead of allowing 7s and 6s.

I've come a full circle back to the starting point your mod is at, really.  Which is good as you've put a lot of thought into it!

Edited November 6, 2022 by v1ld

[v1ld]

@subtledoctorSeeing some weird interactions on Dual classed Swashbuckler / Clerics when using 5E without the items options (so magical items give memo slots only) and SBO 201 + 2013 (ability bonuses give casting slots only).  I'm also running Rogue Rebalancing, so the Swashbuckler is coming from there.

All of this is using the vanilla mxsplprs.2da with all values greater than 5 reduced to 5.  I.e., I used 5 as the spell cap just like your 5E tables, but use the vanilla game's progression.

All other classes I've looked at work fine with or without SBO, it's just dualled Clerics that have problems.  F/C multi, Bards, Swashbuckler > Mage dual - all of these show the right counts of slots and casts.

Here are some numbers, with the first set being with 5E and the second with SBO on top.  Stats are 17/15/15/7/18/8 in all cases.

No SBO, WIS 18 : 

• Swash 8 / Cleric 1:  3 slots + 1 cast (as expected)
• Swash 8 / Cleric 9:  6s+5c (should be 6 slots + 4 casts?); 6+4; 4+3; 3+2; 1+1 (all but level 1 look good)

SBO 201 + 2013, WIS 18:

• Swash 8 / Cleric 1: shows 3 empty slots in Priest book before 5E inits; then goes to 0 slots after init; spell icon flickers on, then stays off; so: 0 slots!
• Swash 8 / Cleric 9: shows 4/4/3/2/1 slots right after level up and goes to 6/6/4/3/1 (instead of 4/4/3/2/1) if I wait a little bit; fill spells, then rest; now has 6s+9c (9!! should be 4+6?); 6s+6c (4+6?); 4s+5c (3+4?); 3+2 (2+3?); 1+1 (lvl 5 is correct!)

Could the vanilla WIS bonus be interacting with SBOs table in some way?  Memo slots are still getting the 2/2/1/1 bonus from WIS when it should be contributing only to casts.  Still doesn't explain how that 9 casts come about.  I'll run more tests on other Cleric duals / multis to see what turns up.

Edit: For completeness, the plan was to have a Swash x > Cleric Dual so I could have Detect Illusion 100 along with 2 pips in Clubs and 3 in Dual Wield on a Cleric.

Edited November 6, 2022 by v1ld

[v1ld]

Pure Cleric (7) with SBO, WIS 18:

• Is given 5/5/3/2 at char creation, consistent with WIS bonus of 2/2/1/1
• After 5E initializes, this drops to 3/3/2 - the 4th level slot is lost, though there should be 1; I would expect 3/3/2/1
• After rest, final counts are 3s + 5c, 3+5, 2+4 - I would expect 3+5, 3+5, 2+3, 1+2 for WIS 18

Without SBO, a Cleric (7) shows the distribution I expect with WIS 18: 5s + 3c; 5+3, 3+2, 2+1.

At level 9, that same cleric shows 6s + 4c, 6+4, 4+3, 3+2, 1+1 which is what you'd expect from a 4/4/3/2/1 level 9 cleric with WIS 18 giving 2/2/1/1 slots.

Clerics work without SBO looks like. 

Edit:  Should have mentioned I'm using SoB v5.40 as that seemed to be the last stable release.  And 5E v1.11.

Edited November 6, 2022 by v1ld

[v1ld]

Sorry for the consecutive posts, but better to keep separate points separate.

Did another install from scratch with RR ahead of Iwdification since I noticed the latter says it must be later in the order.

First install is without SoB, just 5E Spellcasting with the rest of my mods:

• Override contains MXSPLBRD.2da and it is the same file I put into 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/d5cstbrd.2da
• Override contains mxsplprs.2da and mxspldru.2da and neither of these have the contents I provided in 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/d5cstprs.2da and d5cstdru.2da.  Rather they contain what was already in 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/mxsplprs.2da.  So it's not clear what the former files do vs the latter file.  Should they both contain the same table?  Seems redundant to have it there twice.
• No other mxspl* files are present in override at this point.  This is partly expected, since I'm running the game's vanilla version of mxsplwiz, but also unexpected since I'm using modified mxsplpal and mxsplran.

Made a copy of the install to run setup-scales_of_balance.exe --language 0 --force-install-list 201 2013

• This unexpectedly overwrites all of the existing files from the prior 5E install with tables that are for bard much larger and different from the ones I originally provided.  It doesn't touch the existing mxsplprs and mxspldru but copies in new versions of dd, shm, src, wis(!), and wiz.  But not pal & ran. Wiz is not the same table I specified at 5E install time.
• These new files are almost certainly the reason for the weird results I'm seeing above.  I have no doubt they work well with the default tables, but I think I'll skip SoB for now, since I want to use tables closer to vanilla values mostly.

What's the relationship of 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/d5cstprs.2da vs 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/mxsplprs.2da?  When you install 5E, it copies the latter into override/ though it's not clear if it uses the former to calculate casts possibly.  If so, that could explain some of the weird results I'm seeing even when installing just 5E Spellcasting with a different table than default.

Thanks for your patience here - using different tables isn't something the mod says you can do, but I'd like to if possible.

[v1ld]

5E Spellcasting is working well with the customized tables once I replaced all of the 2da files in 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting with the tables I want.  Replacing the 3 non-d5cst files seems to have helped, especially the mxsplprs.2da that's there in addition to d5cstprs.2da.  Clerics have the right casts/slots now at every level I tested.

The only unexplained cast I see now is an extra lvl 1 cast, but not slot, available to both the mage and the cleric that dualled from Swashbuckler(7).  That Swashbuckler class is coming from Rogue Rebalancing and it's possible there's some extra twist to it adding the extra cast.  I'm perfectly ok with this extra cast and am going to get on with playing the game now.

I also tried SoB's 201 and 2013 by replacing all the mxspl* files in it, but this gives the same confusing numbers as above. I'll pass on using it, very happy with 5E casting by itself.

Thanks for the excellent mod and for putting up with all these posts.  Cheers.

[subtledoctor]

Sorry if I haven't been responding... this is all a lot to take in, I really would need to look at the code alongside this data in order to see what exactly is going on. Here are a couple of responses just off the top of my head:

On 11/7/2022 at 12:24 AM, v1ld said:

What's the relationship of 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/d5cstprs.2da vs 5E_spellcasting/data/5E_casting/mxsplprs.2da?  When you install 5E, it copies the latter into override/ though it's not clear if it uses the former to calculate casts possibly

The former givers casts, the latter governs memorizations. The latter is copied into the game to reduce memorization numbers form 9 max to ~5 max (IIRC). Nine memorizations with this system is just too much flexibility, the system is geared toward making casters less flexible in which spells are memorized at any moment, but still flexible in being able to change those memorizations each day.

On 11/6/2022 at 3:41 PM, v1ld said:

SBO 201 + 2013, WIS 18:

Taking another look at this, I think the code was trying to be too complicated. Comp 2013 is meant to remove the WIS bonuses, so the code goes through this rigamarole of 1) replacing the bonus slots table, and 2) then applying op62 effects with penalties to offset the bonuses in the new table. You are probably seeing an interaction with a separate op62 effect in the 5E mod that is not aware of this "add a bonus, remove the bonus" method. Maybe?

At any rate, I am currently testing a new version of comp 2013 that simply... removes the MCSPLWIS table bonuses. Just writes zeros to every entry and doesn't apply any op62 penalties at all. So hopefully this should calm things down. Shamans will still get their bonuses under comp 201, so zeroing out the table should not cause any harm there. The only hiccup this could cause is if you have a 5E casting priest kit, but keep most priests on the vanilla Vancian spellcasting system. For instance, if you install the Might & Guile v5 Loresinger kit, but not the broader 5E Casting mod. In this instance, comp 2013 might slightly malfunction and give Loresingers a couple extra memorization slots. But it's a rare enough possibility, and it simplifies the code so much, that I'm willing to tolerate it for now at least.

If you want to try the simplified version of comp 2013, I could give you the code, it's an easy replacement. I'm going to run my test game a bit to make sure everything is hunky-dory (the test game has SoB comps 201 and 2013 installed - in this run I am having items give memorization bonuses and ability scores give casting bonuses), and then the updated code will be part of the SoB v6 release.

Edited November 8, 2022 by subtledoctor

[v1ld]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

The former givers casts, the latter governs memorizations. The latter is copied into the game to reduce memorization numbers form 9 max to ~5 max (IIRC). Nine memorizations with this system is just too much flexibility, the system is geared toward making casters less flexible in which spells are memorized at any moment, but still flexible in being able to change those memorizations each day.

Agreed - I really like your 5 cast cap and have implemented that across all the tables I use, even if they allow higher levels than normal (RR Bards get some 7th and 8th spells for eg).  I think you picked a really good number and system there!

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Taking another look at this, I think the code was trying to be too complicated. Comp 2013 is meant to remove the WIS bonuses, so the code goes through this rigamarole of 1) replacing the bonus slots table, and 2) then applying op62 effects with penalties to offset the bonuses in the new table. You are probably seeing an interaction with a separate op62 effect in the 5E mod that is not aware of this "add a bonus, remove the bonus" method. Maybe?

This would be a good explanation since a dual-classed Swash > Cleric is created with 3 slots as I'd expect: 1 from vanilla Cleric table + 2 from WIS.  But after 5E initialization (spell button off and then on), the number of slots drop to zero, so there are definitely subtraction effects running amok here.  

I think your too complicated comment is a good direction: keeping the various contributions to slots and casts to being purely additive is a simpler mental model for the user as well to understand.  Zeroing out the default WIS bonus make a lot of sense, as everything else is additive once that's gone I think?

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

If you want to try the simplified version of comp 2013, I could give you the code, it's an easy replacement.

Happy and even eager to help test while the various discrepancies above are still fresh in my mind.  I've got separate install folders that I copy around so I can drop in the new code and test easily as SoB can go to the very end of the load order safely I think.  I can also do some checks on Paladins, Rangers and Druids which I didn't really look at before.  The spell tables I'm using are listed here.

Another really weird interaction I saw consistently is a Swash 8 / Cleric 9 gets, going from lvl 1 to 4, 6s+9c (9!! should be 4+6?); 6s+6c (4+6?); 4s+5c (3+4?); 3+2 (2+3?); 1+1 (lvl 5 is correct!) .  All of the numbers there can be explained by the 2/2/1/1 WIS bonus being added to both #slots and #casts, except for lvl 1's bizarre 9 casting slots which are +3 even after accounting for the WIS boost.  I do wonder if that's another weird interaction with RR.  Happy to test this with your new code.

That said, will say that I've come to really appreciate the numbers from 5E base and vanilla tables capped at 5 and the magical item casting module not installed.  The additional low level casts from INT/WIS/CHA are still a nice and balanced number, but the base 5E setup is very nice too.  I want to have a vanilla-ish run and vanilla tables capped at 5 feels like exactly what I want: vanilla-ish power but with some additional flexibility that lowers the need for fore-knowledge.

Edited November 8, 2022 by v1ld

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, v1ld said:

Happy and even eager to help test while the various discrepancies above are still fresh in my mind

Okay, I haven't made a new pre-release, but you can grab the "mxsplwis_0.2da" file in the /stats folder (or copy the mxsplwis.2da there to "mxsplwis_0.2da" and edit it so all the entries are zero), and grab the "201_SBO_bonus_spells.tpa" file from the /copmponents folder (or copy its contents into the version of the file in your copy of the mod).

As you can see from the new version  of the  file, it is quite simple now: the "5e_no_priest_mem_bonus" function  has all of its code commented out, and replaced by three simple lines:

ACTION_IF (MOD_IS_INSTALLED ~5E_spellcasting.tp2~ ~100~) BEGIN
  COPY ~scales_of_balance/stats/mxsplwis_0.2da~ ~override/mxsplwis.2da~
END

 

[v1ld]

@subtledoctor In every case the memo tables seem correct, which is great.  As are levels 1, 2, 5 and higher.  But lvl 3 is getting an extra cast and 4 is getting one less.

• Cleric 7, F/C 6: 1 extra lvl 3 slot
• Shapeshifter 8; Shapeshifter 11; Cleric 8; Cleric 9: 1 extra lvl 3, 1 less lvl 4 (WIS 18)

Here's a grainy phone pic of the Shapeshifter 11's casts to show the lvl3 + 1, lvl4 -1 casts: Imgur.  I expected 7/6/5/4/2/1 casts to go with 5/4/4/3/2/1 slots (vanilla game table) and 2/2/1/1 bonus with 18 Wis.  But we have 7/6/6/3/2/1 casts instead.

Created a Paladin with WIS 13 to see what happens when you don't have a bonus.

• Paladin 15 (WIS 13): Correct number of slots and casts expected would be base 3/2/1/1; but actual casts are 3/0/0/0.  So maybe there's still some subtraction happening?

Ranger with WIS 18 also has some puzzling numbers:

• Ranger 15 (WIS 18): slots are 3/3/2 as expected.  casts are 3/2/2 when I expected 5/4/3

The weird one continues to be Swash > Cleric dual which get s a ton of extra level 1 casts.  I'm willing to put this down to Rogue Rebalancing, though I don't see anything in NI that would cause this.

• Swash 8 > Cleric 9:  4 slots (correct) + 9 casts (should be 6!) lvl 1; lvl 2 is correct;  3 has an extra cast

This is much better than before though!   Slots are correct in every single instance too.  Don't have the time to test mages and bards tonight, but will do so tomorrow.

Edited November 8, 2022 by v1ld