Discussion on modding BG:EE so that the main plot is more flexible

[The_Baffled_King]

Hi @Endarire, thanks for showing an interest! This may end up done only through Near Infinity edits, rather than available for others via Weidu. I have a lot to try to learn, and I might not get there, but if others are interested then it becomes more likely that it will released as a mod. I don't want to give anyone the impression that if they wait a little longer on a playthrough, perhaps this proposed mod will be done soon : )

3 hours ago, Endarire said:

Would this mod let people enter Baldur's Gate city sooner?  If so, when?

The end goal is definitely to allow access to BG city sooner! I'll try to make this happen in stage/version 2; stage/version 1 will only open up the order of Chapters 1-2-3-4. Taking on board some advice I've been given, I decided to make everything I design consistent with the end goal (so I don't have to change much later on), but split the work into self-contained stages that can be released as a "version" once done.

Stage/version 1 will mostly sort out the plot, letters, dialogue, journal, and variables so everything functions and makes sense, with a single change to make Cloakwood Mines a bit easier and Nashkel Mines a bit harder if done out of order. It won't be amazingly satisfying to do Nashkel after Bandit Camp and Cloakwood - that would only change with a later stage/version that redesigns the second half of the Nashkel Mines - but stage/version 1 will make it possible. Stage/version 1 is part of the answer to your question about BG city, as it will get you the bandit groups led by Teven, Raiken, and Deke in Chapter 2 (maybe Tranzig too), and any of them will let you get to the Bandit Camp.

Stage/version 2 is when I hope to allow early access to BG city. It has to wait because it requires work on what happens with Scar and the Chapter 5 Iron Throne quest if the player gets to BG city sooner. Stage/version 1 will help set up stage/version 2, but Chapters 1-2-3-4 will lead to the usual meeting with Scar at the start of Chapter 5. Anyway, stage/version 2 is the other part of the answer, because completing the Bandit Camp mission (by which I mean stealing Tazok's letters, same as normal) and reporting its location to Officer Vai will unlock BG City in what is effectively Chapter 3.

Officer Vai is one of only a few NPCs I plan to substantially change. She'll be in the Jovial Juggler paying 50gp per bandit scalp from the start of the game, but she won't be specifically interested in you until you clear the Nashkel Mines or, in stage/version 2, if you tell her where the Bandit Camp is. Note that she will make noises about how long it will take to muster the Flaming Fist to encircle the Bandit Camp, the difficulty of doing so with the need to garrison Beregost in case of attack from Amn, and how the clanking plate mail of a few hundred soldiers might alert the bandits. She will ask (or have already asked) about the scalps of the leaders, Ardenor and Taurgosz. So, her dialogue will make it clear that BG City will open up, but that the Bandit Camp will still be there for when the player is brave enough to do more than steal letters and run away...

I have another plan to make BG city (partly) available from the very beginning of the game, and arrival there would be another way to start Chapter 2, but it would have to wait until after stage/version 2. If I'm even able to make that happen, you wouldn't get access to much of BG city this way. You would have to unlock the full city through the Bandit Camp and Officer Vai, or an alternative route involving the sewers of BG city. I think this may require alternative areas for part of BG city (like there is with Candlekeep) until the full city is unlocked. It seems like a lot of work for me, if it is even possible.

3 hours ago, Endarire said:

How would Durlag's Tower and Ulgoth's Beard factor into the plot?  What about the Circus, the basilisk garden, and otherwise?

Fortunately this answer is shorter No change to Durlag's Tower or Ulgoth's Beard, and you can get to both of them in Chapter 1 already if you want (seems weird because they are on the other side of the river, but you can get to the Farmlands and Ulgoth's Beard in Chapter 1 by exiting the map edge next to Tenya's home). At least in BG:EE, anyway.

Actually, sorry, there is one important change in stage/version 2: because you can get to BG city, you can get to the Merchant's League Counting House, so you can get the sea charts and get to Werewolf Island in Chapter 3. You'll struggle when you get there, mind, especially with SCS.

No change to Nashkel Carnival or Mutamin's Garden. The mod will have a few more ways of starting Chapter 2, but going to any of the 3 Nashkel areas - Nashkel/Carnival/Mine - will all remain valid ways to start Chapter 2.

3 hours ago, Endarire said:

NPC companion quests?

Do you mean the BG:EE companion quests, or NPCs added by mods?

[Endarire]

I primarily meant Bioware/Beamdog NPC companion quests, but mod-added companion quests also count.

For BG city, what about disallowing plot progression with Iron Thorne (or Throne, depending on how I read it) until other events are done, or completing the Iron Guys' BG city tasks to effectively complete the other mines'/chapters' quests?

[The_Baffled_King]

13 hours ago, Endarire said:

I primarily meant Bioware/Beamdog NPC companion quests, but mod-added companion quests also count.

As far as the Bioware/Beamdog NPC companion quests are concerned, some with timers may have to be adjusted if opening up the plot effectively gives a player less time to do them (it won't literally give less time, but it may have that effect if the vanilla timer assumes that GW has already done X and reached level Y). If early access to certain joinable NPCs may upset the game balance, I will probably make access subject to minor restrictions by checking XPGT(Player1,[value]) - that is, GW’s experience total - which would be another way to solve the timer issue. But the restrictions would be limited and there would likely be an opt-out available on installation.

One of the attractions of early access to BG city for me is opening up Rasaad's quest earlier (as it's far too easy in Chapter 5). On the other hand, if allowing early access to BG city, I also have to look at the conditions that create Dorn's ambushers at the end of his quest line. Checking XPGT(Player1,[value]) is something I plan to do occasionally to restrict content very slightly, as a necessary evil. And I will have to ensure that nothing bizarre happens with the Beamdog romances if chapters are completed out of order.

As can be seen, from a design perspective, it means checking the specifics of a whole bunch of stuff, and I will have to look at each NPC individually, which is not something I can do for all of the mod-added NPC quests out there.

13 hours ago, Endarire said:

For BG city, what about disallowing plot progression with Iron Thorne (or Throne, depending on how I read it) until other events are done, or completing the Iron Guys' BG city tasks to effectively complete the other mines'/chapters' quests?

I'll give you a full response to these two suggestions, and then I'll probably just have to write an FAQ

13 hours ago, Endarire said:

For BG city, what about ... completing the Iron Guys' BG city tasks to effectively complete the other mines'/chapters' quests?

I'm not going to do this. From a technical standpoint, it requires far too much work to ensure the game can handle yet another possibility. From a creative standpoint, it requires too many changes to the plot, to the extent that it becomes a different story. It may be theoretically possible to approach the plot in BG city differently in a pen and paper D&D campaign, but this ain't it. For instance, note that Scar is only interested in GW in the first place because GW is known for their exploits in the Nashkel Mines. If all a player is concerned about is getting to BG city early (and I understand the attraction), they can do that already by using EE Keeper to change the CHAPTER global variable.

13 hours ago, Endarire said:

For BG city, what about disallowing plot progression with Iron Thorne (or Throne, depending on how I read it) until other events are done ... ?

This is precisely what I plan to do. But that takes more work, both creative and technical, than just putting a magic lock on the door of the Iron Throne building and changing Scar's dialogue so he says "Come back and speak to me in Chapter 5". The plot in BG city doesn't make much sense, and if I'm tweaking the plot so that the earlier chapters make sense when completed out of order, I'd like to take the opportunity to partly fill in some plot holes and make Chapter 5 more satisfying. Here is some re-written dialogue (not serious dialogue; it demolishes the 4th wall) for the meeting with Scar that addresses how the current Chapter 5 plot should play out, and how ridiculous it currently is:

Spoiler

Scar: So, I heard you're the heroes who dealt with the trouble in the Nashkel Mines? Also, we had this big bandit problem, and Officer Vai told me you did a great job with that too, which is something I certainly shouldn't forget to mention (that is if you ever even met Officer Vai, because it doesn't really make any difference either way)!

Gorion's Ward: Umm, what?

Scar: Never mind. Tell me about what happened in the Nashkel Mines.

Gorion's Ward: I'm glad you asked! Because I've been hearing that relations with Amn have deteriorated over the Iron Crisis, but it's totally not their fault. Unless their grand plan includes using kobolds and some wonky priest of Cyric to kill their own miners, kill their own soldiers, and poison all the iron in their mine (not just the stuff they export to Baldur's Gate). I know. I was in the mines myself, and if you care about that, shouldn't you be interested in precisely what I did down there?

Scar: Haha, of course! It would be ridiculous not to, wouldn't it?! So did you find anything else there?

Gorion's Ward: Yup. There were these letters describing how the people behind the trouble in the mines were also directing the bandit raids - that's how I found the location of their camp; I went to find that guy Tranzig mentioned in the letters (or wandered around Peldvale or Larswood and tripped over some chatty bandits that weren't there before, I can't quite remember how it went).

Scar: Chatty bandits? Oh, you're doing that thing I did earlier, to point out stuff that makes no sense. I get it. Let me look at those letters. Because you wouldn't have thrown away something really important like that, would you?

Gorion's Ward: Give me a second, Scar.

*C:CreateItem("SCRL2V")*

*C:CreateItem("SCRL2W")*

Scar: *reads letters*

Sheesh, it's like they're writing it all down just so anyone who finds the letter will be tipped off about the whole plot! Come to think of it, do you really expect me to believe this? It says here in the first letter "Don't reveal your presence to the miners or you will find yourself swamped by soldiers from the local Amnian garrison". So why didn't they handle the problem? Where's the consistency? The soldiers couldn't deal with it, but some kid straight outta Candlekeep did?

Gorion's Ward: Listen, Scar, what you have to understand is that Baldur's Gate was written by a small team working ridiculous hours under commerical pressure. And it was wildly successful. When you look at it that way, it's no wonder there are a load of inconsistencies in the plot. Also, I get to play the big damn hero here.

Scar: Okay, okay, off your high horse, PC. I might be an NPC, but I have class levels too, understand? Now tell me about the bandit camp.

Gorion's Ward: Well, I went and did some stuff there, but Officer Vai wasn't interested in the details, only the amount of scalps I had on me when I saw her. Weird, huh? Anyway, for reasons that aren't clear to me or you, and which we won't explicitly discuss, I guess neither of us need to worry about bandits anymore.

Scar: I concur. So what did you do next?

Gorion's Ward: Well, I found these letters, and-

Scar: Tell me you kept these letters? No? We're in the EE world here, can't you make use of those fancy new scroll cases the kids these days get given?

Gorion's Ward: Sorry. Well, between looking at the letters, and talking to a thief named Ender Sai, I discovered that the Iron Throne were behind the Iron Crisis! And then-

Gorion's Ward: ... Scar, why is it that you don't look surprised?

Scar: I play poker. Out of curiosity, what did you expect me to do? Say that there's nothing I can do about it now, but I'll be sure to look into it?

Gorion's Ward: Well, no, because I figure it would immediately become item 1 on your to-do-list. It would be silly to, I dunno, put it off 'cos you had some paperwork, or whatever.

Scar: That it would, kid. Now go on.

Gorion's Ward: Where was I? Oh yeah. The Iron Throne. So, it turned out they had a secret base in the Cloakwood, and, even though nobody had told me, I felt certain enough that the base was an iron mine that I wrote it down in my journal at the bandit camp. And I got to the hidden base, and it just so happens what I wrote in my journal was spot on!

Scar: And let me guess, you found some letters there too?

Gorion's Ward: That I did! There was another name this time, some guy called Rieltar who works for the Iron Throne and, I tell you, his letters were practically a confession! The only thing I didn't really understand was the bit about the Seven Suns? Take a look.

Scar: Hmm, yeah, my job would be far easier if every criminal in the city wrote such incriminating letters, and their accomplices kept the letters after reading them.

Gorion's Ward: So, I freed the slave miners, killed everyone else, and flooded the mine. And then-

Scar: Hold up. You flooded the mine?

Gorion's Ward: Sure.

Scar: You. Flooded. The. Mine. You FLOODED the mine?!

Gorion's Ward: Why not? I know I dealt a great blow to the Iron Throne, 'cos some disembodied voice told me so-

Scar: BECAUSE WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A GOSH-DARN IRON CRISIS, THAT'S WHY NOT! Have you not been paying ANY attention to the plot?!

Gorion's Ward: But-

Scar: Now shut your cakehole, it's my turn to do the talking. You ever wonder why Wyrm's Crossing didn't open after you dealt with the bandits, but the red carpet was laid out for you on your arrival from Cloakwood?

Gorion's Ward: Umm, because I'm the PC, and I'm special?

Scar: You disgust me. But it just so happens that a bunch of half-naked, wild-eyed, half-starved unfortunates turned up at Wyrm's Crossing before you did, spreading tales of their escape from... wait for it... a hidden mine in the Cloakwood! Of course, it's a minor miracle any of them made it out alive, as somebody just let them run out into a forest chock full o' wyverns, sword spiders, and goodness knows what else. Know who that might be?

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: Yeah. You think on that while you enjoy your improved Reputation- sorry, I mean reputation, lower case.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: Anyway, a fair few people in the city were overjoyed, having lost relatives they thought they'd never see again to the caravan raids. Grand Duke Silvershield himself questioned some of the escapees to see if his son was one of those brought to Cloakwood by the bandits, but sadly not. So I've been yanking your chain this whole time. The leaders of the Iron Throne are already in custody, and I was just looking forward to information about how much iron the Fist could expect to recover from the Cloakwood.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: And about that reference to the Seven Suns. The Seven Suns are a trading coster, led by an old acquantance by the name of Jhasso. They started making odd decisions with their iron investments right about the time the Iron Crisis began, and the Iron Throne cornered the market.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: What, you think you're the only one can put two and two together? So I went to talk to Jhasso. He told me to butt out. And that could have been the end of the matter... only then, he started mumbling about primates, and his groaning belly, and I thought to myself: if I decapitate him there and then, what are the chances he isn't a doppelganger?

Gorion's Ward: .... what's a doppelganger?

Scar: What, new player, are you? Not my problem. Game's finished now.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: So, we've stuck a fork in the Iron Throne. They're done. Had me scratching my head about their lax op-sec, what with telling their slaves who was running the mine an' all. But seeing those letters you showed me, it seems they just couldn't help themselves. I suppose it's sort of like Bond villains, when they think they have Bond at their mercy-

Gorion's Ward: What's a Bond villain?

Scar: Kid... just get outta my sight. I was shaping up to thank you for what you did in Nashkel and the Wood of Sharp Teeth, but now I gotta go tell Grand Duke Eltan that we need to equip the Fist with scuba gear if we want to get our hands on a decent store of iron to face the Shining Crusade.

Gorion's Ward: ... What's the Shining Crusade?

THE END (or IS it)

Irenicus: ... Nah, I think I'm good. That Scar guy is right; I'll find myself a better Bhaalspawn.

Gorion's Ward: ...

Gorion's Ward: What's a Bhaalspawn?

THE END (really now)

Well, I got carried away, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to think of Scar any other way.

Anyway. Aside from my own amusement, I guess the point is that plenty happens in Baldur's Gate that doesn't make much sense, and it would be nice to fix it a bit. An unfortunate side effect may be that some mod-added NPC content makes a lot less sense.

Edited April 6, 2021 by The_Baffled_King

[Endarire]

What if Scar is one person who would commission someone to investigate these disturbances if they haven't done so already?

Questgiver: "Hey!  Check this out!"

PC: "I didn't do that.  OK!"

OR

PC: "Done already.  Let's talk!"

[The_Baffled_King]

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about BG city being fully open from the very start; I've said my piece about that.

4 hours ago, Endarire said:

What if Scar is one person who would commission someone to investigate these disturbances if they haven't done so already?

Yes, this is exactly what would need to happen, but it's only part of the solution

Allowing GW into BG city early seems to me to be possible only subject to either of these two circumstances (and I hate the first idea):

(1) With the Iron Throne building accessible on arrival:

The world becomes as open as possible. The only way I see this functioning from a plot/coding perspective is for the end-game (Chapter 6) to begin when the player completes 4 tasks: locates 3 different pieces of evidence against the Iron Throne (one each in Nashkel Mines, Bandit Camp, Cloakwood Mines), and finds where Rieltar is (by going to the Iron Throne building). So, if you find where Rieltar is early on, you can't get to him because he's already in Candlekeep. Duke Eltan has the only book in existence that will get you into Candlekeep, but you have to build the case against Rieltar with all 3 pieces of evidence before Duke Eltan will be convinced to send you to Candlekeep.

I hate this. It thoroughly ruins the difficulty curve and the plot progression. Making the plot more flexible is not cost-free, and I believe that this is point when the costs outweigh the benefits. And it is just very difficult to reconcile this with everything else going on in the world. For me, part of the problem with BG city is that by the time GW arrives, they already have no good reason to do anything other than investigate the Iron Throne. And the bigger problem, as I said in my previous re-imagining of Scar's conversation with Gorion's Ward, is that there is already an open and shut case against the Iron Throne.

(2) With the Iron Throne building inaccessible on arrival:

A reason must be invented to have the building (and the basement) locked until Chapters 1-4 are complete. That's easy. Magic security. But some reason must also be created to allow GW to bypass whatever locks away the Iron Throne building once it's okay to go there. So, yes, you are right that Scar will be the person who says "can you investigate Cloakwood or Nashkel" if not already done. But for this to make sense, it also has to be Scar or Duke Eltan who provides the means to unlock the Iron Throne building! Because, gosh, how unsatisfying is it if they just say "Quests done? I think you should go to the Iron Throne building now. I'm sure it will be open, wink wink, nudge nudge"?

Fortunately, I have the plot hook to allow this to happen: the ill-fated Emissary Tar. Remember her? Negotiating a new iron treaty with the Iron Throne? You can meet her on level 3 but, no matter if you run up the stairs ahead of her, when you get to the top floor she is dead and replaced by a doppleganger. Leaving aside the weirdness of seeing her on level 3, what gets weirder is that GW can't say afterwards to Duke Eltan: "Gee, Duke Eltan, the Iron Throne tried to replace Emissary Tar with a doppelganger. Maybe time to sort them out?" Nope. And just what was she doing in the building in the first place when it is obvious to everybody with a pulse that the Iron Throne are Bad News TM?! And why did GW not collar Thaldorn, and beat him into signing a confession, before summoning the Flaming Fist? And what about Nortuary (level 3 also), who says he is looking for Rieltar, and then disappears? And why does Destus Gurn mistake GW for a fat woman who is simultaneously both one level below, and one level above?

So here is my idea. In this stage/version 1 I talked about, the evidence against the Iron Throne in Chapters 2-3-4 will be severely toned down. The letters will still exist as a plot device (I'm not seriously bashing Bioware for that). But none of the letters will be written by Rieltar. The slave-miners will know nothing about the Iron Throne - they will know only that the mine is run by Blacktalons and Chill. The only person at the Cloakwood who knows about the whole plot will be Davaeorn. You will not learn about the Iron Thone from the flipping Hobgoblin stock boy at the Bandit Camp! You will not get Ender Sai in the Bandit Camp telling you the whole plot (sans Sarevok's involvement)! He will be one of the leads you have to the Iron Throne, but the unsubstantiated accusations made by a thief are of no interest to Scar or Duke Eltan.

Returning to this stage/version 2, this means that the evidence against the Iron Throne is far weaker. The Iron Throne is obviously in the good graces of most of the Grand Dukes, and Entar Silvershield is busy grieving his dead son, but Duke Eltan is no fool. Provided he has the evidence from Nashkel Mines and Cloakwood, as well as the Bandit Camp and the Seven Suns (all of which Scar sends you to get), he will give you responsibility for checking in on Emissary Tar - for whom access to the Iron Throne has been unlocked for negotiations. Duke Eltan would not have sent her there at all if it was up to him alone, but he is not the only Grand Duke. So maybe he has one of his mages sneakily copy the magic ward provided for Emissary Tar. Maybe GW is sent there WITH Emissary Tar. Regardless, in the Iron Throne building, the **** hits the fan.

What do you think?

Edited April 7, 2021 by The_Baffled_King

[The_Baffled_King]

Just posting a proof of concept for the wording of the alternative start-of-chapter text-screens, for the flexible transitions through chapters 2-3-4-5.

The creative part of the ideas for this - more or less all of them - do exist already; it was the technical queries that led me to make a post on G3 in the first place.

Path 0 (the existing text-screens for Chapters 1-7, for comparative purposes):

Spoiler

Chapter 1

The dawn is especially cruel this morning.

You awake with the realization that you have not been living some horrible dream. Ambushed, you saw Gorion cut down before your eyes, and even his powerful magic could not stop the onslaught. It was his wish that you flee, but that does not remove the feeling of helplessness that now overwhelms you. "Hand over your ward," the armored fiend had said. He was after you and you alone, but why? If only Gorion had given some clue, but now you are alone and lost. Candlekeep is near, but you will find no quarter there. The readers pay for their serenity with rather draconian entry rules, and without Gorion's influence, their doors will remain closed.

You will not last long on your own with your meager equipment. Perhaps you can get some help from the friends Gorion mentioned, the ones at the Friendly Arm.

Chapter 2 [Image of Nashkel]

With your hurried flight from Candlekeep barely behind you, the troubles facing the Sword Coast seem an unfamiliar blur to your fractured nerves.

Gorion would not have you sit idle, however, and perhaps investigating local concerns will shed some light on your own predicament.

How the iron shortage or the trouble in the Nashkel mines could possibly be linked to you, you have no idea.

Chapter 3 [Image of Friendly Arm Inn]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but you remain uneasy.

While the half-orc may indeed have caused the evils that befell the mine, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions, and though they give little indication as to where his cohorts are hiding, they may have links to the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

Chapter 4 [Image of Bandit Camp]

Mulahey and Tazok have proven to be nothing more than puppets; the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: Someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the foreboding Cloakwood forest is your next target.

Chapter 5 [Image of Cloakwood Forest]

You have dealt a great blow to the organization known as the Iron Throne, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Chapter 6 [Image of book; pages show Baldur’s Gate and Iron Throne tower]

Your journey has come full circle. Duke Eltan has asked that you travel back to Candlekeep, where you must spy upon the leaders of the Iron Throne.

While it troubles you that such evil men now make use of the great library, and you wish the circumstances of your visit would be different, it will still be a pleasure to return to your former home.

Chapter 7 [Image of Irone Throne tower]

Life continues to be quite the challenge. You have been accused of murdering the Iron Throne leaders, and the Flaming Fist will undoubtedly hound your every step because of it.

Despite all of this, you must return to the city of Baldur's Gate, the very lair of your accusers.

You must find and expose the one who is responsible for your predicament; you must find Sarevok.

Rather than posting 6 copies of the whole sequence, I'll briefly specify the changes (or lack thereof) to Chapters 1-2 and Chapters 6-7. The final two sentences for Chapter 1 will be removed, to lessen the push to meet Khalid and Jaheira at the Friendly Arm and then go to Nashkel for the 1000th time. The final sentence of Chapter 2 may be removed, mostly because I re-use the phrases elsewhere (but I'm not wedded to that). More importantly, the images for Chapters 2 and 3 are swapped round - by which I mean that you always get the Friendly Arm Inn image with the Chapter 2 screen, and the Nashkel image in the screen for whenever you complete the Nashkel Mines - which makes more sense in general, but particularly helps if Chapters 1-2 and 2-3 are not about Nashkel every game. The text for Chapters 6-7 will not be changed.

In may be easier to view the 3 alternative Chapter 3 texts together; the 6 alternative Chapter 4 texts together; and the 3 alternative Chapter 5 texts togther. So I've posted that in the spoiler below, and the 6 spoilers afterwards show the same texts in the order they would viewed in the 6 pathways through Chapters 2-3-4-5.

Spoiler

Chapter 3A – NMines – (BCamp/CWood) – (BCamp/CWood) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but you remain uneasy.

While the half-orc may indeed have caused the evils that befell the mine, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 3B – BCamp – (NMines/CWood) – (NMines/CWood)

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are easy pickings before your guile, but you remain uneasy.

While Tazok may indeed be responsible for the bandits, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines.

 

Chapter 3C –  CWood – (NMines/BCamp) – (NMines/BCamp)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the Cloakwood Mines, but you remain uneasy.

The letters you find confirm your suspicions: the organization may have links to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines, and the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 4A – BCamp – NMines – (CWood) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the foreboding Cloakwood Forest is your next target.

 

Chapter 4B – CWood – NMines – (BCamp) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the bandits are your next target.

 

Chapter 4C – NMines – BCamp – (CWood)

Mulahey and Tazok have proven to be nothing more than puppets; the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the foreboding Cloakwood Forest is your next target.

 

Chapter 4D – CWood – BCamp – (NMines) [Image: Nashkel]

While Tazok may indeed be responsible for the bandits, the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the mines of Nashkel are your next target.

 

Chapter 4E – NMines – CWood – (BCamp)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the bandits are your next target.

 

Chapter 4F – BCamp – CWood – (NMines)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the mines of Nashkel are your next target.

 

Chapter 5A – BCamp/CWood – BCamp/CWood – NMines [Image: Nashkel]

The death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

 

Chapter 5B – NMines/CWood – NMines/CWood – BCamp

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are as dust beneath you, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

 

Chapter 5C – NMines/BCamp – NMines/BCamp – CWood

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 1: Nashkel Mines - Bandit Camp - Cloakwood

Spoiler

Chapter 3A – NMines – (BCamp/CWood) – (BCamp/CWood) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but you remain uneasy.

While the half-orc may indeed have caused the evils that befell the mine, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 4B – NMines – BCamp – (CWood)

Mulahey and Tazok have proven to be nothing more than puppets; the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the foreboding Cloakwood Forest is your next target.

 

Chapter 5C – NMines/BCamp – NMines/BCamp – CWood

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 2: Nashkel Mines - Cloakwood - Bandit Camp

Spoiler

Chapter 3A – NMines – (BCamp/CWood) – (BCamp/CWood) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but you remain uneasy.

While the half-orc may indeed have caused the evils that befell the mine, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 4E – NMines – CWood – (BCamp)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the bandits are your next target.

 

Chapter 5B – NMines/CWood – NMines/CWood – BCamp

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are as dust beneath you, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 3: Bandit Camp - Nashkel Mines - Cloakwood

Spoiler

Chapter 3B – BCamp – (NMines/CWood) – (NMines/CWood)

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are easy pickings before your guile, but you remain uneasy.

While Tazok may indeed be responsible for the bandits, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines.

 

Chapter 4A – BCamp – NMines – (CWood) [Image: Nashkel]

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: Someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the foreboding Cloakwood Forest is your next target.

 

Chapter 5C – NMines/BCamp – NMines/BCamp – CWood

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 4: Bandit Camp - Cloakwood - Nashkel Mines

Spoiler

Chapter 3B – BCamp – (NMines/CWood) – (NMines/CWood)

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are easy pickings before your guile, but you remain uneasy.

While Tazok may indeed be responsible for the bandits, the shortage of iron is too widespread to be his doing alone.

His letters confirm your suspicions: his cohorts may have links to the Cloakwood Forest, and to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines.

 

Chapter 4F – BCamp – CWood – (NMines)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the iron shortage, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the mines of Nashkel are your next target.

 

Chapter 5A – BCamp/CWood – BCamp/CWood – NMines [Image: Nashkel]

The death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 5: Cloakwood - Nashkel Mines - Bandit Camp

Spoiler

Chapter 3C – CWood – (NMines/BCamp) – (NMines/BCamp)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the Cloakwood Mines, but you remain uneasy.

The letters you find confirm your suspicions: the organization may have links to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines, and the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 4B – CWood – NMines – (BCamp)

It is certain that the death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, but the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the bandits are your next target.

 

Chapter 5B – NMines/CWood – NMines/CWood – BCamp

The bandits that have plagued the entire coast are as dust beneath you, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Path 6: Cloakwood - Bandit Camp - Nashkel Mines

Spoiler

Chapter 3C – CWood – (NMines/BCamp) – (NMines/BCamp)

You have dealt a great blow to the organization behind the Cloakwood Mines, but you remain uneasy.

The letters you find confirm your suspicions: the organization may have links to the trouble in the Nashkel Mines, and the bandits that currently plague the Coast Way.

 

Chapter 4D – CWood – BCamp – (NMines)

While Tazok may indeed be responsible for the bandits, the true master of this unfolding mystery continues to elude you.

One thing is certain: someone has taken a very personal interest in seeking your death, though why, you are not sure.

Your search for answers continues, and the mines of Nashkel are your next target.

 

Chapter 5A – BCamp/CWood – BCamp/CWood – NMines [Image: Nashkel]

The death of Mulahey will relieve the fears of the terrorized folk of Nashkel, a defeat that you are certain will not be ignored.

Now you must travel to the great city of Baldur's Gate, where you are certain to find the truth behind the strange plot that plagues the citizens of the Sword Coast.

Not precisely what I would have written from scratch, or if I wasn't trying to fit the text to the existing audio. And it was frustrating that neither the Cloakwood Mines nor Davaeorn were mentioned in either the chapter text screen or the dream text screens! But the voice-overs are very much a part of BG, and it would be a shame to lose them, so I'm pleased with the result. The tweaks to the text-screens will be mirrored in the far less-specific letters Gorion's Ward will find as they complete Chapters 2-3-4.

I have other things to do before editing the existing audio to provide the voice-overs, but I'm cautiously optimistic that it will turn out well. As one can see from comparing the new text to the existing text, the intonation and cadence of the existing spoken words should mostly remain a good fit as, for the most part, I'm mixing and matching whole clauses (ie. matching the first half of a sentence from one text-screen with the second half of a sentence from another text-screen). Most word-substitutions will I think sound okay because they are mostly like-for-like changes (ie. replacing one proper noun with another).

There are a couple of places where I have a Frankenstein's monster of a word group, with two adjacent words from different sources sort of stitched into a sentence, but there are multiple instances of those words to try, and also few alternative sentence constructions to try (ie. a "While" at the beginning of a sentence replacing a "but" in the middle) if what I have in those places sounds bad, so... as I said, cautious optimism.

Thoughts are welcomed.

Edited April 8, 2021 by The_Baffled_King
My post has been waylaid by unexpected smilies, and it must defend itself

[The_Baffled_King]

I've taken another look at this, and I still think there's no compelling reason why this can't be done. Aside from the dreams, which I *think* have in principle been replaced satisfactorily, it seems that all of the types of changes that would need to be made to create a flexible plot have been successfully made by other mods. With all the effort and ingenuity that has been lavished on Baldur's Gate by modders over the years, I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been done already. But from reading https://weidu.org/~thebigg/README-WeiDU.html, it seems that, from the very beginning, the focus of many modders was very much on NPCs.

Either way, "there's no compelling reason why this can't be done" is not the same as "I will try to get this done"; I've reached the point where I know enough to know that I'm unwilling to invest the time required. If I already had the Weidu skills of some modders out there, it would probably be another matter entirely. I tip my hat to everyone who took the time to comment on this thread (and Kjeron, in my other thread). This is, as Subtledoctor so pithily put it, a thread about vapourware

 

 

[Lauriel]

I was told you may be interested in this:

If not, please excuse the intrusion.

[Lauriel]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:53 AM, The_Baffled_King said:

One of the attractions of early access to BG city for me is opening up Rasaad's quest earlier (as it's far too easy in Chapter 5)

That would be easy enough to do.  Not the early access to BG, per se, but allow Rasaad's quest to be done early.  You just need to move the events in BG to Nashkel and perhaps, Beregost.  Not very complicated, and maybe a nice little mod to get your feet wet.  We need more story modders.  Come!  Join us on the dark side!

[The_Baffled_King]

13 hours ago, Lauriel said:

If not, please excuse the intrusion.

Ha! No need whatsoever to apologise, @Lauriel. Firstly, it's undeniably relevant to the topic of this thread; secondly, it's nice to have another person other than me post in here.

I had two (non-complimentary) ideas for changes to Chapter 6, as I think that the return to Candlekeep is a total mess. On the one hand, it continues the theme of Gorion's Ward chasing down the masterminds behind the Iron Crisis (or at least it purports to do so until the plot switch, which it therefore serves to conceal). It provides access to Gorion's letter, and it is in general a very good location in which to pivot the story away from the Iron Throne and towards the heritage of Gorion's Ward. It removes Gorion's Ward from Baldur's Gate so that the changes required for Chapter 7 can take place in their absence. As a narrative device, it emphasises how much Gorion's Ward has grown over the course of the game. And I love the atmosphere created by the doppelgangers' twisted re-imagining of the lines spoken to Gorion's Ward during Chapter 0. Lastly, while the introduction of the Knights of the Shield and the meeting in Candlekeep is obviously a contrivance to achieve all of the above, it's not so nonsensical that it strains credulity. All of this is good stuff.

On the other hand (as you recognise in your mod and in your comments), there are some very obvious problems with the execution of the return to Candlekeep, and the meeting with Rieltar is just about as unsatisfying as it can possibly be. I was going to post about my idea for fixing this but, on second thoughts, I've done enough typing already. In any case, you've already put some effort into fixing Chapter 6, and that is where the discussion should be.

Edited April 15, 2021 by The_Baffled_King

[Lauriel]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:53 AM, The_Baffled_King said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Scar: So, I heard you're the heroes who dealt with the trouble in the Nashkel Mines? Also, we had this big bandit problem, and Officer Vai told me you did a great job with that too, which is something I certainly shouldn't forget to mention (that is if you ever even met Officer Vai, because it doesn't really make any difference either way)!

Gorion's Ward: Umm, what?

Scar: Never mind. Tell me about what happened in the Nashkel Mines.

Gorion's Ward: I'm glad you asked! Because I've been hearing that relations with Amn have deteriorated over the Iron Crisis, but it's totally not their fault. Unless their grand plan includes using kobolds and some wonky priest of Cyric to kill their own miners, kill their own soldiers, and poison all the iron in their mine (not just the stuff they export to Baldur's Gate). I know. I was in the mines myself, and if you care about that, shouldn't you be interested in precisely what I did down there?

Scar: Haha, of course! It would be ridiculous not to, wouldn't it?! So did you find anything else there?

Gorion's Ward: Yup. There were these letters describing how the people behind the trouble in the mines were also directing the bandit raids - that's how I found the location of their camp; I went to find that guy Tranzig mentioned in the letters (or wandered around Peldvale or Larswood and tripped over some chatty bandits that weren't there before, I can't quite remember how it went).

Scar: Chatty bandits? Oh, you're doing that thing I did earlier, to point out stuff that makes no sense. I get it. Let me look at those letters. Because you wouldn't have thrown away something really important like that, would you?

Gorion's Ward: Give me a second, Scar.

*C:CreateItem("SCRL2V")*

*C:CreateItem("SCRL2W")*

Scar: *reads letters*

Sheesh, it's like they're writing it all down just so anyone who finds the letter will be tipped off about the whole plot! Come to think of it, do you really expect me to believe this? It says here in the first letter "Don't reveal your presence to the miners or you will find yourself swamped by soldiers from the local Amnian garrison". So why didn't they handle the problem? Where's the consistency? The soldiers couldn't deal with it, but some kid straight outta Candlekeep did?

Gorion's Ward: Listen, Scar, what you have to understand is that Baldur's Gate was written by a small team working ridiculous hours under commerical pressure. And it was wildly successful. When you look at it that way, it's no wonder there are a load of inconsistencies in the plot. Also, I get to play the big damn hero here.

Scar: Okay, okay, off your high horse, PC. I might be an NPC, but I have class levels too, understand? Now tell me about the bandit camp.

Gorion's Ward: Well, I went and did some stuff there, but Officer Vai wasn't interested in the details, only the amount of scalps I had on me when I saw her. Weird, huh? Anyway, for reasons that aren't clear to me or you, and which we won't explicitly discuss, I guess neither of us need to worry about bandits anymore.

Scar: I concur. So what did you do next?

Gorion's Ward: Well, I found these letters, and-

Scar: Tell me you kept these letters? No? We're in the EE world here, can't you make use of those fancy new scroll cases the kids these days get given?

Gorion's Ward: Sorry. Well, between looking at the letters, and talking to a thief named Ender Sai, I discovered that the Iron Throne were behind the Iron Crisis! And then-

Gorion's Ward: ... Scar, why is it that you don't look surprised?

Scar: I play poker. Out of curiosity, what did you expect me to do? Say that there's nothing I can do about it now, but I'll be sure to look into it?

Gorion's Ward: Well, no, because I figure it would immediately become item 1 on your to-do-list. It would be silly to, I dunno, put it off 'cos you had some paperwork, or whatever.

Scar: That it would, kid. Now go on.

Gorion's Ward: Where was I? Oh yeah. The Iron Throne. So, it turned out they had a secret base in the Cloakwood, and, even though nobody had told me, I felt certain enough that the base was an iron mine that I wrote it down in my journal at the bandit camp. And I got to the hidden base, and it just so happens what I wrote in my journal was spot on!

Scar: And let me guess, you found some letters there too?

Gorion's Ward: That I did! There was another name this time, some guy called Rieltar who works for the Iron Throne and, I tell you, his letters were practically a confession! The only thing I didn't really understand was the bit about the Seven Suns? Take a look.

Scar: Hmm, yeah, my job would be far easier if every criminal in the city wrote such incriminating letters, and their accomplices kept the letters after reading them.

Gorion's Ward: So, I freed the slave miners, killed everyone else, and flooded the mine. And then-

Scar: Hold up. You flooded the mine?

Gorion's Ward: Sure.

Scar: You. Flooded. The. Mine. You FLOODED the mine?!

Gorion's Ward: Why not? I know I dealt a great blow to the Iron Throne, 'cos some disembodied voice told me so-

Scar: BECAUSE WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A GOSH-DARN IRON CRISIS, THAT'S WHY NOT! Have you not been paying ANY attention to the plot?!

Gorion's Ward: But-

Scar: Now shut your cakehole, it's my turn to do the talking. You ever wonder why Wyrm's Crossing didn't open after you dealt with the bandits, but the red carpet was laid out for you on your arrival from Cloakwood?

Gorion's Ward: Umm, because I'm the PC, and I'm special?

Scar: You disgust me. But it just so happens that a bunch of half-naked, wild-eyed, half-starved unfortunates turned up at Wyrm's Crossing before you did, spreading tales of their escape from... wait for it... a hidden mine in the Cloakwood! Of course, it's a minor miracle any of them made it out alive, as somebody just let them run out into a forest chock full o' wyverns, sword spiders, and goodness knows what else. Know who that might be?

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: Yeah. You think on that while you enjoy your improved Reputation- sorry, I mean reputation, lower case.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: Anyway, a fair few people in the city were overjoyed, having lost relatives they thought they'd never see again to the caravan raids. Grand Duke Silvershield himself questioned some of the escapees to see if his son was one of those brought to Cloakwood by the bandits, but sadly not. So I've been yanking your chain this whole time. The leaders of the Iron Throne are already in custody, and I was just looking forward to information about how much iron the Fist could expect to recover from the Cloakwood.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: And about that reference to the Seven Suns. The Seven Suns are a trading coster, led by an old acquantance by the name of Jhasso. They started making odd decisions with their iron investments right about the time the Iron Crisis began, and the Iron Throne cornered the market.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: What, you think you're the only one can put two and two together? So I went to talk to Jhasso. He told me to butt out. And that could have been the end of the matter... only then, he started mumbling about primates, and his groaning belly, and I thought to myself: if I decapitate him there and then, what are the chances he isn't a doppelganger?

Gorion's Ward: .... what's a doppelganger?

Scar: What, new player, are you? Not my problem. Game's finished now.

Gorion's Ward: ....

Scar: So, we've stuck a fork in the Iron Throne. They're done. Had me scratching my head about their lax op-sec, what with telling their slaves who was running the mine an' all. But seeing those letters you showed me, it seems they just couldn't help themselves. I suppose it's sort of like Bond villains, when they think they have Bond at their mercy-

Gorion's Ward: What's a Bond villain?

Scar: Kid... just get outta my sight. I was shaping up to thank you for what you did in Nashkel and the Wood of Sharp Teeth, but now I gotta go tell Grand Duke Eltan that we need to equip the Fist with scuba gear if we want to get our hands on a decent store of iron to face the Shining Crusade.

Gorion's Ward: ... What's the Shining Crusade?

THE END (or IS it)

Irenicus: ... Nah, I think I'm good. That Scar guy is right; I'll find myself a better Bhaalspawn.

Gorion's Ward: ...

Gorion's Ward: What's a Bhaalspawn?

THE END (really now)

Well, I got carried away, and now I don't think I'll ever be able to think of Scar any other way.

This is hilarious and SPOT ON! 

[Endarire]

Scar wants you to be prepared!

[The_Baffled_King]

2 hours ago, Endarire said:

Scar wants you to be prepared!

Ha! I'm sure he does. Watching that actually made me think Sarevok, rather than BG Scar...

[The_Baffled_King]

3 hours ago, Lauriel said:

This is hilarious and SPOT ON! 

Thank you

Even if all the rest of the typing ends up as a waste of time, I enjoyed creating that little dialogue...

[Lauriel]

4 minutes ago, The_Baffled_King said:

Thank you

Even if all the rest of the typing ends up as a waste of time, I enjoyed creating that little dialogue...

Writing the dialogue is what I enjoy most when it comes to modding.  I really think you'd enjoy it.  It's a fun hobby.