Kahrk is nonsense.

[DavidW]

30 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

No, the argument is that even if improved, the Sarevok encounter is completely trivialized by the fact that the player has boots of speed, while Sarevok seems to have only a dispellable haste applied on him. Is the haste timed? Does it come from a spell? In the original game Sarevok had haste come out from a ring*. Was there dispellable as well? If charname has a ring that applies haste, can it get dispelled? 

Unmodded Sarevok also has dispellable haste; I don't change this. (At the technical level it's from an undroppable ring, but that's how BG1 implements prebuffing - I assume he had it cast on him before the battle, or applied Oil of Speed.)

On the broader point: I just don't mind this issue. We have a character (playing solo, I assume) who's identified the fact that Sarevok is inherently fairly slow moving but has a haste spell and that they're much faster, so that dispelling the haste spell gives them a big tactical advantage. And they've also managed the rest of their resources and tactics so as take out Sarevok's minions (three of whom have ranged weapons and/or spells) and their undead replacements (who are 90% immune to magic and fairly resistant to missile damage) even while staying ahead of Sarevok.

Good for them! Sounds like a well-deserved victory: clever tactics, effectively implemented. Why would I want to spoil it?

[Guest Morgoth]

Anyway I'm probably boring all of you. I won't comment further and I refrain from making any other comments from now on.

[Bartimaeus]

Yes, if you approach an encounter with specific meta-gamed, exploity tactics and strategies that specifically prevent the encounter from playing out as intended, it may be...easier than intended. Here is my shocked Pikachu face:

Like, are you joking right now?

If that's how you want to play, that's fine - nobody else cares. But advocating for changing the encounter design based off of being able to use such extreme tactics is another matter entirely.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

49 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

Are you telling me that trying to use the best tactic (dispel him and then nuke him with arrow of detonation while kiting with the boots of speed) is an exploit now because I'm not supposed to kite??

 I mean, opinions on kiting range from "stupid and cheesy" to "good strategy." I have my opinion (it's cheesy in that it's something the player can do but the AI cannot, and in any event it just isn't fun), but it doesn't negate yours so it isn't worth arguing about.

The bigger issue is that your whole argument seems to boil down to "I kite Sarevok and I cannot kite Kahrk." I mean, there's so much more to evaluating an encounter than whether you can kite the guy.

• Sarevok is a very powerful fighter, while Kahrk is the most dangerous fighter/mage that you can meet. Very different kinds of challenge
• Sarevok is a mandatory encounter, while Kahrk is optional
• Beating Kahrk gives you a measly katana, beating Sarevok wins the game

Moreover, the power of Sarevok is not in his performance in a fight, but in every enemy you face in the main plot. Did you ever die to Daveorn? Or Rieltar? Tazok? That was really Sarevok who beat you. Kahrk is just a dangerous individual; Sarevok creates the entire game.

Finally, from what I've learned in this thread, you can dispel Kahrk's Haste. Which means you can kit him just fine, if that's your thing. So... what is the issue again??

[DavidW]

 

2 hours ago, Guest Morgoth said:

Anyway I'm probably boring all of you. I won't comment further and I refrain from making any other comments from now on.

You're not boring me, and I'd like to invite other people in this thread to dial down the snark a bit. I like getting this sort of feedback, even when I don't agree with it.

[Guest Morgoth]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

Unmodded Sarevok also has dispellable haste; I don't change this. (At the technical level it's from an undroppable ring, but that's how BG1 implements prebuffing - I assume he had it cast on him before the battle, or applied Oil of Speed.)

On the broader point: I just don't mind this issue. We have a character (playing solo, I assume) who's identified the fact that Sarevok is inherently fairly slow moving but has a haste spell and that they're much faster, so that dispelling the haste spell gives them a big tactical advantage. And they've also managed the rest of their resources and tactics so as take out Sarevok's minions (three of whom have ranged weapons and/or spells) and their undead replacements (who are 90% immune to magic and fairly resistant to missile damage) even while staying ahead of Sarevok.

Good for them! Sounds like a well-deserved victory: clever tactics, effectively implemented. Why would I want to spoil it?

I get it ;). But he plays with a party.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

 I mean, opinions on kiting range from "stupid and cheesy" to "good strategy." I have my opinion (it's cheesy in that it's something the player can do but the AI cannot, and in any event it just isn't fun), but it doesn't negate yours so it isn't worth arguing about.

The bigger issue is that your whole argument seems to boil down to "I kite Sarevok and I cannot kite Kahrk." I mean, there's so much more to evaluating an encounter than whether you can kite the guy.

• Sarevok is a very powerful fighter, while Kahrk is the most dangerous fighter/mage that you can meet. Very different kinds of challenge
• Sarevok is a mandatory encounter, while Kahrk is optional
• Beating Kahrk gives you a measly katana, beating Sarevok wins the game

Moreover, the power of Sarevok is not in his performance in a fight, but in every enemy you face in the main plot. Did you ever die to Daveorn? Or Rieltar? Tazok? That was really Sarevok who beat you. Kahrk is just a dangerous individual; Sarevok creates the entire game.

Finally, from what I've learned in this thread, you can dispel Kahrk's Haste. Which means you can kit him just fine, if that's your thing. So... what is the issue again??

This is a very meaningful post. Thank you. 

24 minutes ago, DavidW said:

 

You're not boring me, and I'd like to invite other people in this thread to dial down the snark a bit. I like getting this sort of feedback, even when I don't agree with it.

Well, I didn't want to make the thread go ultra hot for no reason and it felt like my point was not being considered at all. Subtledoctor made an amazing post.

Said this, I understood your point of view thanks to the first post in this page (that I quoted above).

By the way, I have to clarify one thing: I never kite in any encounters. Sarevok is the only exception, but because he can really make mince on you with 2-3 hits. But I realize why people think it's an exploit. I will think about not kiting him anymore too, given that Bartimaeus doesn't think it's fair. And neither Subtledoctor, it seems. 

Well, thank you all.

[InKal]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

 I mean, opinions on kiting range from "stupid and cheesy" to "good strategy." I have my opinion (it's cheesy in that it's something the player can do but the AI cannot, and in any event it just isn't fun), but it doesn't negate yours so it isn't worth arguing about.

The bigger issue is that your whole argument seems to boil down to "I kite Sarevok and I cannot kite Kahrk." I mean, there's so much more to evaluating an encounter than whether you can kite the guy.

• Sarevok is a very powerful fighter, while Kahrk is the most dangerous fighter/mage that you can meet. Very different kinds of challenge
• Sarevok is a mandatory encounter, while Kahrk is optional
• Beating Kahrk gives you a measly katana, beating Sarevok wins the game

Moreover, the power of Sarevok is not in his performance in a fight, but in every enemy you face in the main plot. Did you ever die to Daveorn? Or Rieltar? Tazok? That was really Sarevok who beat you. Kahrk is just a dangerous individual; Sarevok creates the entire game.

Finally, from what I've learned in this thread, you can dispel Kahrk's Haste. Which means you can kit him just fine, if that's your thing. So... what is the issue again??

The game has stages. Khark encounter is harder for the (usual) stage of the game you meet him than Sarevok encounter for its stage. That is the real trivialisation, not because of exploits imo. 

 

[InKal]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

 

 

Heya, it's me, Imoen!

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Guest Morgoth said:

IBy the way, I have to clarify one thing: I never kite in any encounters. Sarevok is the only exception, but because he can really make mince on you with 2-3 hits. But I realize why people think it's an exploit. I will think about not kiting him anymore too, given that Bartimaeus doesn't think it's fair. And neither Subtledoctor, it seems.

It's perfectly O.K. to kite an enemy if it makes your game more enjoyable. I do not begrudge anyone who does that, or even more "egregious" acts like outright cheating. Play (singleplayer) games just however you like - really! I'm no stranger to literally making my own hacks and cheats via Cheat Engine for singleplayer games that test my patience a little too much. But when you list out a series of extreme tactics that you employ to trivialize the design of an encounter on multiple levels, and the implication seems to be that you do not enjoy or find the encounter satisfying/challenging as a result of using said extreme tactics to trivialize it...well, a little restraint on the part of the player can go a long way, particularly if it's reasonable to believe that other players aren't doing what you're doing. You can do it the way you're suggesting...but you don't have to.

I'm not going to use an exploit that deliberately only pulls Sarevok and none of the other combatants into battle (this makes no sense in-universe and it would never work on me as the player, so I do not subject the AI to it - it would simply feel hollow and dissatisfying to me). The only kiting I'll ever do is incidental/accidental when I'm trying to disengage one of my characters and an enemy is homing in a little too hard on them and it's not really my fault they're basically forcing themselves into a kiting situation (there are no mechanics the AI has at its disposal to deal with kiting, and the AI itself never kites because of how annoying, unfair, and especially tedious it'd be for the player...and the player has way more tools at their disposal to deal with it anyways, like switching all characters to ranged weapons, than the AI typically has). I personally also have a general philosophy of never using limited-use items like Arrows of Detonation (partly because I just don't like using limited-use items on a more or less totally irrational level, partly because it's IMO best to experience all battles as if you never have get-out-of-jail-free cards like those arrows)...but this one is purely on me. And here's the thing: I'm a hundred percent cognizant that this last one is my own form of extreme limitation that I do not ever expect other players to adhere to (why wouldn't players use all resources at their disposal?), so I would not ever ask anybody else to adjust how they play or the content of their mods based on that - that'd be totally unreasonable.

If you do all of the things you listed that trivialize the Sarevok battle and think to yourself "yes, that was a good battle!" right after you've done it, then that is all well and good - continue on to Baldur's Gate II. If, on the other hand, after doing all of that you find yourself thinking "well, that was a stupidly easy final boss, how lame!", well, why do it like that, then? You're the one pushing the buttons and pulling the levers here, .

At times like these, I'm reminded of the old mod Improved Anvil and its utterly anti-player philosophy that effectively required players to meta-game, exploit, and cheat as much as possible to progress... Thank goodness SCS isn't like that at all.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Morgoth]

Bartimaeus, I'll probably do some more refraining. Thanks for explaining me your pov.

[Guest Jesse]

My issue with Kahrk is not his difficulty, but the rewards for overcoming them.  He is dramatically more difficult than Drizzt for a party which can overcome him, and yet, Drizzt's XP and loot table are dramatically better than Kahrk's.  The +2 katana is a nice touch, but I suggest multiplying his XP reward multifold.  I believe I received 900 or 1200 upon killing him, which simply isn't proportional to the effort.

[DavidW]

I don't do XP reward increases, it leads to an arms race. (And I think of Drizzt as an easter egg, not as a real combat encounter.)

[Guest Jesse]

While I could have picked a better comparison than Drizzt, I think XP rewards being outside the scope of an AI mod is a perfectly fair position to take.   Just offering my 'full spectrum' view as a new (and delighted) user of SCS.

[Mahatmah]

Today calls for celebration.

Looking far in the distant past ... 7 years ago I made a very uninformed post on Kahrk, complaining about his power : 

He has now become a milestone in any BG1 playthrough, one I have learned to fear ... but deal with.
However, it is not without emotion that I now witness him take a justified nerf, if only in the way you can approach and delay the fight.

Thank you community, vocal Kahrk haters, and thank you David for listening to our lamentations.
And **** you Kahrk.

Sorry for needlessly bumping this thread.

Cheers.

[Thacobell]

For some reason, I kept thinking this was Karoug and was very confused why people were calling a wolfwere a fighter/mage.