Looking for the right syntax in a .d file

[Machiavélique]

Hello,

I would like to add a condition to display a text but I don't know if it is possible to do it in a simple way

I can't find the correct syntax

 

APPEND ~B!GAVJ~

/* Preceding code */

 

IF ~~ bf1.10
SAY @65
= @66
= @67
= @68
= /* I'd like to add the condition !Global("B!GavNoBG1","GLOBAL",1) */ @69
IF ~GlobalGT("B!GavAffinity","GLOBAL",1)~ THEN + bf1.13 //link to @73
IF ~!GlobalGT("B!GavAffinity","GLOBAL",1)~ THEN + bf1.13v //link to @3073
END

 

/* Following code */

END

 

 

Strangely there is a syntax that works perfectly in a CHAIN

Spoiler

CHAIN
IF ~Global("B!GavFirstNight","LOCALS",2)~ THEN ~B!GavJ~ fs2.0
@2713
DO ~SetGlobal("B!GavFirstNight","LOCALS",3)~
== ~B!GavJ~ IF ~Global("B!GavRA","GLOBAL",2)~ THEN @2714
== ~B!GavJ~ IF ~Global("B!GavRA","GLOBAL",4)~ THEN @2715
END

But I don't know if there is a way to adapt it to an APPEND (I tried many things, but to no avail...)

 

Thanks in advance

Edited September 18, 2021 by Machiavélique

[jastey]

57 minutes ago, Machiavélique said:

IF ~~ bf1.10
SAY @65
= @66
= @67
= @68
= /* I'd like to add the condition !Global("B!GavNoBG1","GLOBAL",1) */ @69
IF ~GlobalGT("B!GavAffinity","GLOBAL",1)~ THEN + bf1.13 //link to @73
IF ~!GlobalGT("B!GavAffinity","GLOBAL",1)~ THEN + bf1.13v //link to @3073
END

This is not possible like this in a normal dialogue state. You'd need to split it off into two states, the second one only being reached if the condition is true, or use CHAIN. CHAIN is actually perfect for these cases, because you can just add lines with conditions (and also, for different speakers) without having to worry about making them all different dialogue states.

Your example is from Gavin, is this something you think is an oversight and should be corected in the mod or are you only adapting the mod for your personal use (which would be totally fine as long as you don't share it publicly)? I'm maintainer of the Gavin mods and am open to issue reports.

[Machiavélique]

Thanks
I've been trying to find a way to do this in a clean and simple way for a long time, but I see now that it's impossible without the CHAIN

 

During the translation of the GavinII mod where I added the possibility of "vouvoying" and "tutoying" I was confronted with this problem many times and this was a good example to illustrate it.
To do this type of translation correctly, I need to recheck everything and so far I have seen 2 major strange problems in Gavin mod. But if you are in charge of maintaining this mod, I will post in the relevant topic before doing this kind of modification myself.

 

I want my translation to be public and since I don't want to create compatibility problems, the .d files will be overwritten when another language is chosen.
So my plan is to have 2 types of .d files, one with the current .d and one with the modified .d files, so Gavin and the PC could address each other in formal or informal terms.
The idea is these new files can also be used in other languages with formal/informal terms (Spanish, German, Italian etc).

I explained my translation project to Berelinde who replied "Please feel free to do what you feel is best".As you are in charge of maintaining this mod, I would like us to work together, I want to be able to give you all the possible errors/omissions that I will find during my translation and to give you my ideas to corrects them.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Machiavélique

[jastey]

First a question: is this considered in the game at all? Is there different lines whether the PC romances e.g. Jaheira or not?

In German this is not needed, the game goes with "Ihr/Euch" for addressing others. The community agreed that this is only different for Imoen who addresses the PC with "Du".

What you are suggesting scares me, tbh. I don't think I will have time to help with the actual implementation work. Especially since if this is a real issue in your language, then all mods would need to be changed like that. I am struggling time-wise with just adding all useful Project Infinity features to all my mods.

EDIT: To state it plainly: for an official translation that would be included into the mod package, I will go with what is common in the according modding community. Rescripting the whole mod package was never done so far as far as I know, so either your community came up with a new idea and will have a lot of work ahead in the future (and a lot of headache to convince modders to include this), or you are going an individual way.

[CamDawg]

1 hour ago, Machiavélique said:

I want my translation to be public and since I don't want to create compatibility problems, the .d files will be overwritten when another language is chosen.
So my plan is to have 2 types of .d files, one with the current .d and one with the modified .d files, so Gavin and the PC could address each other in formal or informal terms.
The idea is these new files can also be used in other languages with formal/informal terms (Spanish, German, Italian etc).

This is not a good approach. Having alternate dialogue files simply multiplies the effort needed to keep the mod up-to-date and bug-free, in addition to making it incredibly difficult for other mods (e.g. Crossmod) to properly add and extend Gavin's content.

We'd love to have additional translations of Gavin (or any G3 mod, for that matter) but not in a way that actually diminishes the maintainability and quality of the mod.

[jastey]

And what @CamDawg said.

[Machiavélique]

44 minutes ago, CamDawg said:

This is not a good approach. Having alternate dialogue files simply multiplies the effort needed to keep the mod up-to-date and bug-free, in addition to making it incredibly difficult for other mods (e.g. Crossmod) to properly add and extend Gavin's content.

We'd love to have additional translations of Gavin (or any G3 mod, for that matter) but not in a way that actually diminishes the maintainability and quality of the mod.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I didn't realise that and now I understand what Jastey meant. Indeed, I admit that working in this way cannot provide an official translation. But I don't think it will be a problem...

As I only add new sentences, I can easily work on two paths at the same time. One with the original .d files for an official translation, and one for an unofficial translation.

 

Do you think it would be a problem to publish and share an official translation here and an unofficial translation elsewhere ?

[CamDawg]

Setting aside the issue of whether having an alternative version is a good idea (it's not) or something berelinde would have wanted (also no), it still won't alleviate any of the aforementioned pragmatic issues. Players will still be coming here for any suggestions or changes, unless you're committed to supporting the unofficial version for perpetuity. Even if you are, then you still have the issue of making sure that any fixes in the official version still get to the unofficial one, the very process we're trying to avoid--except now it's exacerbated by being a further step removed.

[jastey]

7 hours ago, Machiavélique said:

Do you think it would be a problem to publish and share an official translation here and an unofficial translation elsewhere ?

Please don't. Uploading inofficial versions is never a good idea, especially not elsewhere.

I will update both Gavin mods eventually so they play nice with Project Inifnity, meaning I need to change the install sequnce to remove the use of ACTION_READLN. There are a few issues I need to fix, also rescripting race triggers inside the dialogue so people who are using romance cheats do not get stuck with a "No Valid Replies Or Links" (NVROL).

As @CamDawg already pointed out, you'd either have to change such an inofficial version every time I'd do that - or people using your version would come here in the future, reporting issues I just fixed.

How is response to such a project in your home community? It's French, is there a lot of people waving pompoms and cheering you on so they finally get the chance to address Gavin with "tu", or is it more of an idée fixe (no offence meant) from your side?

Theoratically, the official mod could be reworked the way you were planning to. It's just a project of such magnitude and ... I'm tempted to say "craziness" but I don't mean to offend, it really scares me tbh. Gavin BG1 already has a French version that does not consider this, for example. Then there is all the other NPC mods...

If I see it right, you set out to translate the Gavin BGII mod. How about you start with just transating what is there in the way it is common for other mods. Afterwards, if it's still important to you, we could reevaluate the need to recode the whole mod for a more intimate dialogue path?

[Machiavélique]

4 hours ago, jastey said:

How is response to such a project in your home community? It's French, is there a lot of people waving pompoms and cheering you on so they finally get the chance to address Gavin with "tu", or is it more of an idée fixe (no offence meant) from your side?

Don't worry, I'm not offended.

It's really more an "idée fixe" from my side. Gavin mod got a lot of dialogues and I need to get pleasure when I translate it. I need to be satisfied with the work I do. There are many things I tried to correct unitil now as :

- Splitting too big Dialogs

- Reworking the dialogues that follow on from each other (Changing the order of sentences for better understanding)

- Making the dialogue flow better (By checking all references where texts are used. Mainly, it consists of minors rearrangements at the end or beginning of a dialogue)

- Making slight differences in tone between sentences with "vous" and those with "tu".

 

It's very time-consuming, but it will takes less time to do it all at once (official + unofficial) than to do a classic French translation first and then start again with a French adaptation.

I'm at about 4% of translation. I understand that I have no choice but to cancel all the changes I've made, but I don't know if I would really enjoy translating Gavin in this way. In the end, I will not be proud of my work.

I need to make up my mind about that.

 

4 hours ago, jastey said:

Theoratically, the official mod could be reworked the way you were planning to. It's just a project of such magnitude and ... I'm tempted to say "craziness" but I don't mean to offend, it really scares me tbh. Gavin BG1 already has a French version that does not consider this, for example. Then there is all the other NPC mods...

If I see it right, you set out to translate the Gavin BGII mod. How about you start with just transating what is there in the way it is common for other mods. Afterwards, if it's still important to you, we could reevaluate the need to recode the whole mod for a more intimate dialogue path?

 

No, you already have a lot of work to do and I don't want to give you more. I would rather learn and make the changes myself than ask you to do it for me.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Machiavélique

[jastey]

@Machiavélique for your personal use only, you are free to change whatever you like.

What you are anticipating is way more than a (very special) translation. It's a rewrite of the mod. I'm not the mod author, so I can't take these in even if I wanted to.

Maybe your time is better spent by working on an own NPC mod, to be honest. If there is so much in trouble with the Gavin mod for you that you have to "fix" nearly every dialogue, then better work with something else. In the end, for translation you have to work with what is there. If you are only satisfied with your translation if you rewrite parts of other people's mod(s) then you will not come far in terms of your translations being included into the official packages, or even to have them publicly available.

[jastey]

You know, I totally get where you are coming from. Not for Gavin, but when playing Weimer's Solaufein mod, I was not content with how Solaufein was characterized so I tweaked the mod for my personal use. Years later, my own Solaufein mod was born, which - hopefully - does no longer contain any traces from Weimer's (other than Solaufein admiring the moon, symbol of his diety). So, I understand the urge to "fix" a mod - but it's really something you would do in private, and maybe don't talk too much about it, unless you seek the author's opinion and want to discuss your proposals with them in the hopes they get included into the mod officially. For Gavin, though, berelinde is long away from the modding scene, so an overhaul of the mod will not happen.

[Machiavélique]

What I'm trying to do is enough different than changing how a character was characterized

Please understand me. I agree, changing an element in the scenario because we don't like it is, in my opinion too, comparable to rewriting the mod (and I don't want it either).

 

A translator's job is to translate. Not just to translate the words, but what they mean. It' requires translating the scenario, the feelings, the personality of the characters, the humour...

For me, the translation must reflect the original story as if it had been written in the reader's language. If someone reads the original version and understands and feels the same as in the translated version, then I will consider my work a success.

 

In the game, every time you select a choice, it's like putting that choice and all the lines that go with it in a book. Playing with an NPC mod is like writing a story, a story that depends of your choices. What makes a story good? In my mind a story is good if the scenario is good and if it is well written.

 

As I said, I don't want to change the scenario*, that would be changing the mod in my opinion. I just want it to be well written in French. I don't want there to be lines that don't flow well, I want the story to flow and be enjoyable to read.
Maybe the turn of phrase and flow of dialogue is very well written in English (I don't know, I don't have enough English skills to judge it properly), but if I try to translate into French I sometimes find myself in dead ends where I say to myself that such and such dialogue will only be able to flow correctly in 3 situations on 4.

 

*except for the terms "formal" and "informal" (which can effectively be considered as a modification of the scenario). I didn't want to change anything else in the script, I just want to make sure the story is well written after translation (a story that flows, is immersive and enjoyable to read). I want the reader to feel that he is reading a story as if it were written in his own language. I want to be able to do the best I can, but I'm felling my hands are tied.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Machiavélique

[jastey]

As I said, you can do any changes you want for your personal use. If you move around sentences and change the order of dialogues lines, your changes go way beyond what is a translation and will not be included into the mod package, unless you convince me it should be changed for all languages because there might be an oversight that needs to be corrected.

[Jazira]

You also have 2 others workarounds :

- Make an extension mod for Gavin BG2 (like Garrick: Tales of a Troubadour http://mirandir.baldursgateworld.fr/garrick-tt/ for example, it's an extension based on the content of BG1 NPC)

- I don't really recommend it but, technically it's doable, use the same .D structure but with *slightly* different .TRA content, for example :

//Original text

1@ = ~I'm hungry...~ //NPC1

2@ = ~I could eat a whole horse.~ //NPC1

3@ = ~With salad, tomatoes and onions?~ //NPC2

//Edited text

1@ = ~I'm so hungry, I could eat a beef. Let's get by the next tavern, I heard colonel Sanders one is great, but they only serve chicken...~ //NPC1

1@ = ~And I hate chicken!~ //NPC1

3@ = ~Meat, meat, meat... can't we just eat some vegetable, for once?!~ //NPC2

Although this is ethically questionable. This will not be a translation anymore, but more kind of an adaptation/rework if too much have been changed (especially the meaning of the sentence). Every translator have already done it at least once, sometime it's needed for the sake of the quality/understandability, but most of the time it is not. And I know, it doesn't really help you for your affinity idea...

Your idea of affinity based texts is great ! Not new, but great. Unfortunately, it will only be official on your own mod. You can't ask maintainers to heavily edit content they don't own, even if Berelinde told you to do "whatever you want". This mod is now "community property", in this case G3. And they have a policy of keeping creators contents and ideas untouched. With a few exceptions of corrections by common sens and for the better. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Jazira