[WIP] Sigil: a shared directory of mods for Infinity Engine games

[UMNiK]

View and contribute on GitHub

Check projects for current status and any issues that are marked as help wanted. Collaborators welcome.

Edited September 25, 2021 by UMNiK

[DavidW]

As a small example of the (to be sure, not-insuperable) problems with a classification scheme: SCS is not 'purely combat-focused'.

[jastey]

EndlessBG1 and Transitions were categorized as "Early Tweak" - same for Imoen4Ever. (As in - install early, whereas normal Tweaks would come late).

I would also add catergories:

• "NPC Extentions"
• "Crossmod".

NPC Extentions are for example romances for existent NPCs, because they often add PIDs for original NPCs which should come late (to prevent stutter bugs in case other mods added dialogues with these NPCs that aren't weighted correctly), Crossmod because it should be installed after all relevant mods to see the content.

I'd suggest adding the rule that the list only accepts entries for original mod versions, and without stolen content. No need to drag the drama any further.

[subtledoctor]

Imagine he had just posted this first, instead of leading with a dozen posts full of insults! This actually seems productive. (That last line though... "how to get people to do things for me?" Yeesh.)

1 hour ago, jastey said:

EndlessBG1 and Transitions were categorized as "Early Tweak" - same for Imoen4Ever. (As in - install early, whereas normal Tweaks would come late)

I assume (hope) that this categorization is purely for the benefit of new players' browsing - it has nothing to do with install order.  Install order is a completely different issue.

[jastey]

2 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I assume (hope) that this categorization

Which one? What I posted for EndlessBg1 and Transitions, or what the OP listed for categories? Because for EndlessBG1 and Transitions (and Imoen4Ever), that is totally the install order.

[jastey]

3 hours ago, UMNiK said:

How to reliably get modders to contribute new mod links themselves rather than waiting for someone else to list them?

That's a really good question, btw. Let us know if you've found the answer.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, jastey said:

Which one? What I posted for EndlessBg1 and Transitions, or what the OP listed for categories? Because for EndlessBG1 and Transitions (and Imoen4Ever), that is totally the install order.

I meant the OP's categories. Meaning, if people put EndlessBG1 and Trnasitions in the category "tweaks" (if that is the proper category and I'm leaving aside that question for the moment), then there is no need to distinguish them as "early tweaks." For purpose of this dreamed-of list or site, the goal is (or should be) solely to help players browse and find mods they might like.

How/when those mods should be installed is a totally different question that can be answered by a different mechanism (PI/MWL/forum threads/a different list)

IMHO!

Edited September 19, 2021 by subtledoctor

[jastey]

If the categories are for finding mods only then EndlessBG1 and Transitions and Imoen4Ever would indeed be correctly sorted as Tweaks, but I fear the confusion of people "knowing" that "tweaks come late" and then I'll have to tell them that's not true for these three mods when they hit a game breaking bug and post their EET weidu.log after 40+ hours of gameplay.

[Guest Ghast]

1 hour ago, jastey said:

That's a really good question, btw. Let us know if you've found the answer.

Obvious answer: you can't. Obvious follow-up: someone else than the modder or maintainer must list the mods.

5 hours ago, UMNiK said:

The immediate plan: input and categorise the most current lists for BG1EE+SoD and BG2EE that contain EET support into the shared list. 

Why an EET-only list? There is one already. And it's a repo as well. It's informative enough, and simple enough to be possible to keep up-to-date. Oh wait, aren't there actually two such lists? The other one being a near copy of the EET maintainer's own list, except that this second list recommends another installation tool and lists its own selection of mod versions?

How to make people use a list of mods not endorsed by the modders/maintainers themselves? Well, there must be a list out of their control, right. But no one actually wants or needs such a list, what to do? Well, why not invent an obviously insoluble problem, like, the modders can't be made to reliably contribute to The List themselves. The modders are the problem! Next, claim that our list is the solution to the problem. As for rational arguments -- e.g. that our list may not be more complete, more accurate or more up-to-date than any other list, which we claimed was the reason we needed a new list in first place --  well, just ignore them and repeat the imaginary problem in a loud voice. Next step: bring in the army of indignant alts. <popcorn>
 

[Guest Ghast]

5 hours ago, UMNiK said:

The problem: ... There is currently no easy way to see every mod available for any particular game and what that mod does.

If this initiative started out in response to a genuine problem (lack of information), how come you didn't try to actually solve the problem first? E.g., by making your own list based on the most prominent websites and presenting that work as a starting point? Wouldn't that have been valuable to you and possibly the community? Didn't you want to find some mods?

5 hours ago, UMNiK said:

The solution: a shared list that is not specific to any project or person and may be added to and maintained by anyone

Right.

[Endarire]

How do you categorize the engine changing EEex and mods that depend on it like OlvynSpells and Epic Thieving?

[UMNiK]

22 hours ago, DavidW said:

SCS is not 'purely combat-focused'.

Given that this list does not include individual mod components, just mod names, would you say there is a better category for it than "Tactical"? Of course, it can be added to multiple if need be.

 

20 hours ago, jastey said:

Crossmod because it should be installed after all relevant mods to see the content.

Since install order is out of scope for now, would placing them under "Tweaks" be enough?

 

20 hours ago, jastey said:

I'd suggest adding the rule that the list only accepts entries for original mod versions, and without stolen content.

Added a fairly neutral FAQ for the reason of omission of Roxanne's BWS fork. Surely if it's an open question whether any mod versions at all will be reliably added it's a bit premature to worry about a tidal wave of people going to the trouble of first stealing them. Hopefully, having a community-owned and operated list will also incentivise modders themselves to add the exact versions they want to share with the world, avoiding the issue entirely in the future.

 

9 hours ago, Endarire said:

How do you categorize the engine changing EEex and mods that depend on it like OlvynSpells and Epic Thieving?

I'm of two minds about it: either add a "Tools" section and shove all the technical stuff in there (including EEex, EEKeeper,  DLCMerger etc.) or omit it and hope people will read the mod readmes, since this is not an install order nor a list for the development of mods. What do you reckon?

 

While I understand that the current situation is heaven for anyone who enjoys interpersonal communication at least as much as playing mods, I am much more interested in the latter. Consider the following points extra to the purpose of this thread and/or already made with no need to repeat them (hidden to keep from temptation of copy-pasting them again).

Spoiler

There were past failures of these projects. - It's why there is existing material to build on.

This project may never get off the ground. - It may not, depending on how many people choose to engage with it. Happily, there are now easy-to-use tools that allow to spread the load.

This project may also fail in the future. - It may, but it would require more things to go wrong and would be easier to resuscitate.

There may be future failures of these projects. - They will have an easier time building on top of this one.

You're not the nicest\smartest\most well-known\respected person in the world. - Nor is anyone, hence the need for a collaborative effort.

You should do it all yourself. - I can't do it all myself, nor can anyone for any prolonged period of time, hence the need for a collaborative effort.

You shouldn't ask for any piece of help from anyone who wants to freely offer it. - I disagree, and there are too many examples of the opposite leading to greater good for all for it to be true.

 

[Guest Ghast]

You still here? How unfortunate.

You still haven't explained why you felt it necessary to come in here and start being rude to people, but at least your being consistent about it. No one is asking you to "do it all yourself" (or to do anything community related really), but it seems only fair to ask you to do something yourself. So far you haven't. That does not stop you from asking people to 'collaborate' -- not with you, but as your reports.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mike1072
removed name-calling

[Guest Ghast]

49 minutes ago, UMNiK said:

Added a fairly neutral FAQ for the reason of omission of Roxanne's BWS fork.

As you're clearly aware, the issue is not so much the tool itself but the mods that it promotes. You know, such things that you would have added to a list.

49 minutes ago, UMNiK said:

Surely if it's an open question whether any mod versions at all will be reliably added it's a bit premature to worry about a tidal wave of people going to the trouble of first stealing them.

Since you're entire reason to be here seems to be, not to get work done, but to dictate to others how it should be done, it's not "premature" to point out issues with your instructions.

49 minutes ago, UMNiK said:

Consider the following points extra to the purpose of this thread and/or already made with no need to repeat them

Except that you're not in charge and people are perfectly able to decide for themselves what they consider extra for the purpose of this thread.

49 minutes ago, UMNiK said:

You're not the nicest\smartest\most well-known\respected person in the world. - Nor is anyone, hence the need for a collaborative effort.

"My way of doing things is the only way forward, and the fact that I'm an asshat is proof."

Suffice it to say that there are more suitable people than you around to get stuff done -- if it needs to be done.

[jastey]

1 hour ago, UMNiK said:

22 hours ago, jastey said:

Crossmod because it should be installed after all relevant mods to see the content.

Since install order is out of scope for now, would placing them under "Tweaks" be enough?

Er, no. You do not seem to be familiar with what the mod categories or the used terms mean. EDIT: OK, I might have gotten that wrong when first reading it, Still; Crossmod is content - e.g. for mod NPCs banter, dialogues, interjections - between mods. Either between two mod NPCs, or of a mod NPC to a quest mod, or one mod to subrace choices of another, etcpp. This is no "Tweak". It's "Crossmod".