Assorted Optional SRR Stuff for Base SR

[Bartimaeus]

These are all taken directly from the SRR readme that are optional depending on what you select in settings.ini. If there is any interest, some of them could be ported to base SR. In SRR, generally but not always original behavior is preferred (note what the "default x" says next to each one), and depending on interest and discussion, perhaps some of them could become the default behaviors. It now occurs to me that there may be too many in this one topic.

#1. Optional (i.e. disable-able) revised saving throws:

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revised_saves (default 1)
When set to 1, revised saving throws for all characters will be installed. These revised tables are an attempt to be more sensible and better balanced between the classes, but they do somewhat deviate from the official 2E AD&D saving throws tables.

#2. AoE Lower Resistance:

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aoe_lower_resistance (default 0)
When set to 1, Lower Resistance becomes a 20' radius AoE effect (makes it more feasible for use against e.g. groups of drow).

#3. Friendly spells pierce spell protections:

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friendly_spells_pierce (default 0)

When set to 1, all friendly spells may pierce through spell protection spells (e.g. Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Deflection, Spell Trap, etc.). This allows you to use e.g. healing spells without worrying about your Spell Deflection wasting charges to absorb it (this is the opposite of vanilla behavior, where e.g. Cure Light Wounds would be absorbed by Globe of Invulnerability).

#4. Imprisonment allows for a saving throw:

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resist_imprisonment (default 0)
When set to 1, Imprisonment allows for a vs. spell saving throw at a -6 penalty (note that it is still not subject to magic resistance even when this is enabled).

#5. Restore Blindness to mages:

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blindness (default 0)
When set to 1, the arcane spell Blindness is restored to the slot that Obscuring Mist currently occupies (but remains in druids' spellbooks).

#6. Web slows instead of holds:

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slowing_web (default 0)
When set to 1, Web no longer holds characters but instead makes it so characters cannot attack or cast spells, are slowed down to 1/8th movement speed, and suffer a -4 penalty to AC.

#7. Spellcasting HLAs:

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spellcasting_hlas (default 0)
When set to 1, all arcane and divine HLAs will remain in spellbooks and take up spell slots to memorize and use. When set to 0, all arcane and divine HLAs will no longer be spells you can find in spellbooks but instead become innate abilities that can be used independently of normal spell memorization - however, they may only be taken and memorized once.

#8. EE Enchanted Weapon

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ee_enchanted_weapon (default 0, EE-only)
When set to 1, the 4th level arcane spell Enchanted Weapon simply sets your current weapon to have an enchantment bonus of +3 instead of allowing you to create an entirely new weapon.

#9. Two-Handed Polymorph/Shapeshifted Weapons:

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ee_two_handed_shapeshifts (default 1, EE-only)
When set to 1, off-hand attacks/shields are disabled for shapeshifted/polymorphed characters (bug/exploit fix).

#10. Targetable Chant:

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targetable_chant (default 0)
When set to 1, Chant can be directed at any point from within sight instead of automatically self-targeting (vanilla behavior). Currently unknown how this behaves with the AI attempting to use this spell.

#11. Pick your familiar:

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pick_familiar (default 0)
When set to 1, the Find Familiar spell allows you to choose the type of familiar you wish to have (note that EET games cannot benefit from this, as EET changes how this spell works too much in order to have the spell work properly across its different campaigns).

#12. Alternative Remove and Dispel Magic:

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alternative_remove_magic (default 0)
When set to 1, Remove Magic no longer uses the caster level vs. target level mechanics of Dispel Magic, but instead a simple saving throw that scales with level (-1 for every 5 levels of the caster, up to a maximum of -4 at 20th level). When set to 0, the vanilla dispelling mechanics are used. When set to 2, Remove Magic becomes a sort of lesser Breach AoE effect - one combat and one specific protection are removed from each creature, growing to two of each at 10th level, then three of each at 15th level.

alternative_dispel_magic (default 0)
Identical to the component above, but instead applies to cast versions of Dispel Magic (i.e. arcane, divine, Inquisitor's innate, and Yeslick's innate).

#13. Anti-magic spells pierce improved invisibility:

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anti_magic_spells_pierce (default 0)
When set to 1, all anti-magic spells will always pierce through (i.e. be able to target creatures with) the improved invisibility status regardless of Detect Invisibility/True Seeing status. This applies to Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Khelben's Warding Whip, Pierce Shield, and Spellstrike. When set to 2, Breach is also included.

#14. Globes of Invulnerability behavior:

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dispel_globes (default 1)
When set to 1, globes of invulnerability cannot be taken down by dispelling effects (e.g. Dispel/Remove Magic, Carsomyr, etc.), but the globe will not protect the rest of their spells from being protected (vanilla BG2 behavior). When set to 0, the globe can be taken down as well (vanilla BG1 behavior). When set to 2, the globe cannot be dispelled and will protect all other effects on the protected creature from being dispelled as well. With any setting, globes will still be taken down with normal anti-magic (e.g. Secret Word, Ruby Ray of Reversal, etc.).

#15. Petrification behavior:

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petrification (default 1)
When set to 1, all creatures will be in a permanent "held" status when petrified instead of the old stone status (avoids potentially game-breaking bugs). When set to 0, the vanilla style of petrification will be used instead. When set to 2, only enemies will be petrified in the stone style; party members will instead be permanently held.

My own thoughts are that...

1. Petrification should become its own component (i.e. not in the main component) with a number of different options.
2. Globes of Invulnerability should default to 1 at the very least (in base SR, the current behavior is 0, and that seems a little silly to me especially since other spell protections are not subject to Dispel/Remove Magic).
3. The alternative dispel/remove magic mechanics should perhaps be available as options but the default behavior should be that of vanilla.
4. The EE 2H polymorph/shapeshift bug/exploit fix should be the default at the very least.
5. It should be possible to revert Enchanted Weapon back to its non-EE version because IMO the EE version makes this spell worse, not better, but at the very least you should be able to choose even if one is the default over the other.
6. Spellcasting HLAs should probably be an option but absolutely not the default.
7. The alternative Web should be an option but probably not the default.
8. Chant should be investigated more before any decision made (particularly in regards to how it would impact e.g. SCS AI spellcasting of it - if it breaks the AI, then it should not be used regardless).
9. The saving throw for Imprisonment *must* be an option at least, given the lack of any way to resist Imprisonment as it stands. If Demilich's Imprisonment/Soul Trap does not currently have a saving throw, it should as well.
10. Friendly spells piercing through spell protections should MAYBE be the default, but absolutely an option at least.
11. AoE Lower Resistance seems like a no-brainer.
12. The revised saving throws table should the default but disable-able.
13. Anti-magic spells being able to always pierce improved invisibility should definitely be an option for those who struggle with mage battles and want to simplify them some, but should not be the default.

If there is meaningful discussion of these, I will probably bring up other SRR tweaks to discuss at some point in the future. But you don't have to weigh in on all of them by any means!

Edited September 21, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

Some of these look verrry interesting. Curious how “Web Slows” - I just got my version dialed in, but it took me a while to figure it out. Also “pick familiar” - I have a similar mod, but it’s 3 tweaks in one, and I’ve been thinking about trying to disentangle them. 

Definitely like #2, #3, #4, #7, #8, #9, #12, #13 (from the initial numbering). I think #14 and #15 should have more options. I already have code for several options for #14, could migrate that over. #15 Could have options for SR-style, vanilla-style, or with a temporary duration...

I have no problem with targetable Chant, but then I have no problem with untargetable chant either. Could just expand the AoE...

As for Blindness, I thought SR no longer replaces it since using ADD_SPELL? Could easily just add Obscuring Mist separately and keep Blindness... the big problem with Blindness is that it is do ridiculously OP - the only arcane counter is True Sight. I would drop the duration to like 3 rounds. Honestly, maybe even 2 rounds. It applies hefty melee penalties to warriors, and almost entirely hobbles mages. Taking a mage out of commission for 2 rounds is a fairly strong effect...

The Web thing has very niche appeal. I like it, you like it, but I think the vast majority of players looove their OP Web spell. 

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

 

Blindness: I'm not a hundred percent sure, but in SRR, it's druids' Obscuring Mist that is ADD_SPELL-ed, while the arcane will still replace Blindness. The issue with arcane spells, of course, is always the scrolls: any time you add a new spell (or decide not to replace an old one), it means you need a new scroll and places to patch it in (identifying places is not fun in of itself, especially when you consider that patching them in between all the different possible, say, area codes, with having BG1EE, BGT, and EET games can be...annoying, to say the least). Unfortunately, I'm pretty serious about where I like to patch them in too (I really prefer to identify proper and fitting places), so it's especially difficult for me.

Web: Yes, agreed, it's a good alternative option, but that's precisely why I leave it disabled by default.

Chant: Yeah, I only recently implemented this at the request of @Hubal, so I haven't had time to test if it even works properly with AI.

Blindness: It's even more problematic because Blindness is -4 THAC0 in EE games and -10 in ToBEx games. This was the personal request of Salk, and again, it's left disabled by default in SRR. I did not do anything with it beyond restore it to its vanilla state, but you're right, the duration would have to be cut down if it were being seriously considered. I might even do something with level scaling, where it's maybe 2 rounds to start with, but goes up a round every two levels or something up to a max of 5 at 7th or something like that.

Globes: Uh...what other options have you come up with? I thought I covered all the bases...

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

means you need a new scroll and places to patch it in (identifying places is not fun

Lazy way is to choose another spell, and patch the new one into every store that already sells the existing one. Done!

Globes: I didn’t expand the quote, didn’t see the third option. I thought I have four options... will check. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Hubal]

Thank you very much. Installing right now to check AI.

[DavidW]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Lazy way is to choose another spell, and patch the new one into every store that already sells the existing one. Done!

SCS v34 (or v33, in fact) will also pick up the spell and distribute it in random loot fairly carefully. But I agree that there's no real substitute for hand-crafted allocation.

[Lord_Tansheron]

The obvious caveat first off is that more options for people tends to generally be better than fewer options; until it gets confusing and overwhelming at least. That being said, some comments on the specifics:

- Blindness used to be INSANELY powerful, practically a hard disable for most enemies because the zero sight range made them basically do nothing for 2 HOURS. Unreal power for a lvl 1 spell

- Dispel/Remove Magic are a constant pain to get right, partly because LoB makes level-based comparisons almost moot; ST is an option but tends to fail against the enemies you need it most against (mages) so it's not very satisfying either. Having options is fine, but I'm not happy with any of them; I also have no real solution, though

- Imprisonment absolutely needs a save, honestly this could just be baseline

- Web makes sense to me; for that matter, I've always found it weird how many movement impairing effects actually just straight disable; why is there Hold and Paralyze when they both work the same? Why does Web not work like Entangle, and why? Very strange

- Targetable Chant makes little sense to me tbh; are Priests that good at throwing their voice?  Never seemed a problem to me that it's caster-centered

- Allowing (targeted) dispels to go through Invisibility seems like a pretty severe intervention to me, as getting around that is a big part of caster battles

- friendly spell pierce seems entirely reasonable; already the case with MR, should probably work for friendly Inivs, too. Barely if ever a balance concern, and simply QoL++

- Innate HLAs has been something I very much enjoyed, but I get that some people prefer to stack up on those spells; giving that option seems reasonable

[Hubal]

Having options is ALWAYS better. Thats what Mods are for , options for vanilla game. You realize that this settings are in settings.ini? SRR was like that for a very long time if not from beginning. It's nowhere near being overwhelming. That way I can customize spells for LoB+SCS.

 

 "Targetable Chant makes little sense to me tbh; are Priests that good at throwing their voice?  Never seemed a problem to me that it's caster-centered."

Have you ever been in a church? Priest can "throw voice" like there is no tomorrow.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Hubal

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Blindness used to be INSANELY powerful, practically a hard disable for most enemies because the zero sight range made them basically do nothing for 2 HOURS. Unreal power for a lvl 1 spell

Oh hey, you're right, it did originally last for two hours. Right now, SRR's version lasts for 1 turn, which is already too long. Two hours is the equivalent of 10 turns, which is basically just a death spell at that point.

5 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Dispel/Remove Magic are a constant pain to get right, partly because LoB makes level-based comparisons almost moot; ST is an option but tends to fail against the enemies you need it most against (mages) so it's not very satisfying either. Having options is fine, but I'm not happy with any of them; I also have no real solution, though

You're not really supposed to be able to use the current Dispel/Remove Magic against high level mages, though. A third level dispel by a 10th level party is not supposed to completely trivialize a near epic-leveled mage battle, after all. The saving throw option is really more intended to be a "common sense" option and get rid of the silly level vs. level mechanic and have it work in a more transparent fashion against groups of similarly-leveled buffed enemies. The "lesser breach" dispel option, on the other hand, will work regardless of the level or saving throws of the casters involved, which gives it more consistency and *could* help against high-leveled mages...but doesn't offer nearly the same potential power as the "dispel everything or nothing" approach. Anyways, they're optional for a reason, .

5 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Web makes sense to me; for that matter, I've always found it weird how many movement impairing effects actually just straight disable; why is there Hold and Paralyze when they both work the same? Why does Web not work like Entangle, and why? Very strange

It's just a matter of verbiage. "Hold" is meant to be more of a mental command or status, usually induced magically or psionically...while paralysis is more of a physical status induced by natural (or, as it were, unnatural) abilities. It'd have been nice to have actual separate effects (i.e. opcodes) to distinguish between the two, though. I think SR and IR kinda try to, because there is a Hold Person 1 and Hold Person 2 (and a Hold Person 3 but that's meant to be used against e.g. undead that are normally immune to it), but it's not consistent.

6 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Targetable Chant makes little sense to me tbh; are Priests that good at throwing their voice?  Never seemed a problem to me that it's caster-centered

It's a spell I've personally never liked using because it has the maximum cast time and it's most effective when used right in the middle of a fight where you're most likely to get interrupted. Its duration is also pretty short (1 turn), which makes it a little difficult to use pre-battle as you would, say, Bless (5 turns). As for "throwing their voice", I don't think Chant actually has anything to do with the caster's voice, at least based on the description and of those I can find for actual D&D.

6 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Allowing (targeted) dispels to go through Invisibility seems like a pretty severe intervention to me, as getting around that is a big part of caster battles

Perhaps, but it's actually a change that SCS, AFAIK, will allready do itself (if it doesn't detect you playing an SR game, question mark?) and I think having the option makes sense given that many struggle with or don't enjoy high-level mage battles.

6 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

- Innate HLAs has been something I very much enjoyed, but I get that some people prefer to stack up on those spells; giving that option seems reasonable

Yeah, I always disliked spellcasting HLAs, Like, yeah, you can't cast Dragon's Breath or Comet over and over, but the end result is that you actually have your 9th level spell slots available for other spells while still being able to use the HLAs the same way other classes can.

[DavidW]

26 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Oh hey, you're right, it did originally last for two hours. Right now, SRR's version lasts for 1 turn, which is already too long. Two hours is the equivalent of 10 turns, which is basically just a death spell at that point.

Except that it's relatively readily reversible. And you do have a few combat options if blinded: run around in confusion, cast self-targeted AoE that you're immune to, summon monsters.

[DavidW]

31 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Perhaps, but [antimagic penetrates Improved Invisibility is] actually a change that SCS, AFAIK, will allready do itself (if it doesn't detect you playing an SR game, question mark?) and I think having the option makes sense given that many struggle with or don't enjoy high-level mage battles.

SCS won't do this if it detects SR, but only because it assumes you've done it already (back in the day this was part of Demi and my discussions of how to align SR and SCS). SCS will get very confused if you use it without this.

Incidentally, this is also vanilla-game behavior on the EE as of 2.6.

[Bartimaeus]

32 minutes ago, DavidW said:

Except that it's relatively readily reversible. And you do have a few combat options if blinded: run around in confusion, cast self-targeted AoE that you're immune to, summon monsters.

Oh no, I'm not concerned with how the player might deal with it - that's easy, they can just run away and rest after the battle is over. Do enemy mages even use Blindness to begin with? No, I'm more concerned with players using it and it effectively serving as a death sentence for enemies. And two turns is a really long time for one disable against one enemy - 99.9% guaranteed that enemy will be dead before that duration is up.

27 minutes ago, DavidW said:

SCS won't do this if it detects SR, but only because it assumes you've done it already (back in the day this was part of Demi and my discussions of how to align SR and SCS). SCS will get very confused if you use it without this.

Incidentally, this is also vanilla-game behavior on the EE as of 2.6.

Thanks: all the more reason to have it as an option to enable, then. Just in case it wasn't clear, this is not the current behavior of base SR and hasn't been for years - only through Detect Invisibility and True Seeing do you have the option to target improved invisible creatures with any kind of targeted spellcasting.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[DavidW]

19 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Oh no, I'm not concerned with how the player might deal with it - that's easy, they can just run away and rest after the battle is over. Do enemy mages even use Blindness to begin with? No, I'm more concerned with players using it and it effectively serving as a death sentence for enemies.

I was talking about how enemies might deal with it (this is how SCS tries to deal with it). I'm not disputing that it's overpowered though! (& SCS mages use blindness.)

 

22 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

ust in case it wasn't clear, this is not the current behavior of base SR and hasn't been for years - only through Detect Invisibility and True Seeing do you have the option to target improved invisible creatures with any kind of targeted spellcasting.

Oh yes, that does ring a bell. I don't know how well SCS handles that; not terribly, I assume, or I'd have heard about it, but I don't allow for it explicitly.

[Lord_Tansheron]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

summon monsters.

Ah yes, SCS's answer to EVERYTHING, just summon oodles of stuff  Sometimes it feels like it takes the idea of "throwing everything at you" very literally indeed...

Jokes aside, it's not like Blindness has no answers to it of course, but it's still ridiculously powerful for a lvl 1(!!) spell. Even remnants of it like the Nymph Cloak from IR(R) are super good. This feels like a case to me where if people really want to play with OP stuff like Blindness, then why are they even using SR... You might as well give them an option for the old Improved Haste, too, then, or stuff like that.

[subtledoctor]

I think just giving Blindness a short duration is fine. Forcing a caster to meaningfully change/limit their spell options for 3 rounds, even if they are not totally hobbled, is a very good effect from a 1st-level spell. Ditto for applying melee penalties to warriors - I mean, compare it with Ray of Enfeeblement at 2nd level. Even with a very short duration, I'd say Blindness would still be superior.

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

When set to 2, Remove Magic becomes a sort of lesser Breach AoE effect - one combat and one specific protection are removed from each creature, growing to two of each at 10th level, then three of each at 15th level.

Oh hey, I missed that one too. I remember brainstorming that! But then I forgot all about it and never implemented it. I never cast Dispel Magic, basically for reasons that Lord_Tansheron mentioned. But I would probably actually use this spell.

Only suggestion I have is, the vast majority of enemies don't generally have 2-3 combat protections and 2-3 specific protections. So in lots of cases, this will function like a 100% guaranteed full-power Remove Magic.  For a 3rd-level spell I would probably limit it to 1 combat protection and 1 specific protection, with no scaling.

Also, a balance consideration: if the player does not install "Deflection Blocks AoE," then this can bypass Deflections and the like. In which case a core design tenet of SR and SCS, to wit, that you cannot breach someone who has spell protections up, could be circumvented by this spell. If it acts like an AoE Mini-Breach, then I would probably suggest patching all spell protections to provide hard 206 protection against this.

(Of course that raises the question, what good is Dispelling Screen?" To which I don't have an immediate answer. This probably needs unpacking and a lot of careful consideration. But if we could get it right, it is something I would really, really like.

5 hours ago, DavidW said:

Except that it's relatively readily reversible.

By a 6th-level wizard spell, or a 3rd-level priest spell? I wouldn't describe that as "readily" until we are deep into BG2 chapter 2... (unless I'm forgetting something!)

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

Oh yes, that does ring a bell. I don't know how well SCS handles that; not terribly, I assume, or I'd have heard about it, but I don't allow for it explicitly.

I think the script/behavior that leads casters to cast Detect Invisibility/Invisibility Purge/True Seeing more or less takes care of this in most instances.

12 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

Allowing (targeted) dispels to go through Invisibility seems like a pretty severe intervention to me, as getting around that is a big part of caster battles

No - it lets you hit invisible enemies with Secret Word to dispel their Spell Deflection, but then they are still invisible so you cannot target them with Lightning Bolt or whatever. You'll still need to make them visible to do much. I like the SR style of relying on opcode 193 from Detect Invisibility and True Sight to achieve this, but mostly for reasons of flavor and perceived consistency. In practice, enabling Secret Word et al. to target invisible mages will be a b it jarring to people like me, but it won't make much difference in terms of what you have to do in a mage duel.  (Unless Breach could also target invisible enemies, in which cast it would very much change mage battles. I very much hope Breach would NOT get this flag...)

Edited September 22, 2021 by subtledoctor