Separating out the option of changing the stat-setter items into stat-buffers into a component?

[Graion Dilach]

I've been told that IR (or IRR? I dunno) changes stuff like the Gauntlets of Dexterity to not set a stat to 18 or so but to buff the respective stat instead with a few points.

Generally I find what IR and IRR doing too much and too arbitrary so I'm only interested in this particular feature (especially if it also covers the kinda-unless AC bracers), but as far as the readmes tell me, this is impossible to be installed on it's own without all the other changes.

Is this actually IRR-only? is it possible to have this separated out to a component?

[subtledoctor]

EDIT - sorry, ignore what’s below, I misread the question. IR makes this change to the Gauntlets of Dexterity, the Ring of Human Influence, and maybe a couple other things. It doesn’t change the Bracers of AC. 

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Edited October 15, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Graion Dilach]

Yeah, I don't think the Bracers of AC are ever touched up, that was more of a suggestion...I prolly sit down at one point and carve this functionality out into a private mod at one point then.

[Bartimaeus]

On 10/15/2021 at 2:50 PM, Graion Dilach said:

I've been told that IR (or IRR? I dunno) changes stuff like the Gauntlets of Dexterity to not set a stat to 18 or so but to buff the respective stat instead with a few points.

Generally I find what IR and IRR doing too much and too arbitrary so I'm only interested in this particular feature (especially if it also covers the kinda-unless AC bracers), but as far as the readmes tell me, this is impossible to be installed on it's own without all the other changes.

Is this actually IRR-only? is it possible to have this separated out to a component?

Oh dang it, I forgot that this was something requested a few times before - I did intend to deal with it at some point. My feelings are basically this:

The "flat-setting" stats are either useless or very abusive, since they either do nothing for characters that are already good with them or are completely overpowered for characters that used that stat as a dump stat.

Conversely, the "+x bonus" stats are potentially even *more* abusive because they allow you to reach unusually high numbers if combined together. So...I guess if people want to abuse the flat-setting type instead, it's ultimately not really that big of a deal, since both ways are kind of abusable...unless you use 3E-style stats, which makes it so that the "+x bonus"-type stats are obviously better suited all around, but I'm pretty sure most players don't, so...

[Lord_Tansheron]

The biggest argument against stat-setting, to me, was always that they make items not only useless but DETRIMENTAL to anyone who already has a higher stat.

Same with the spells that do that.

Such a bad feeling, imo.

[Bartimaeus]

26 minutes ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

The biggest argument against stat-setting, to me, was always that they make items not only useless but DETRIMENTAL to anyone who already has a higher stat.

Same with the spells that do that.

Such a bad feeling, imo.

If there was a way to only apply the stat-setting if the stat was lower, you could do a "mixed mode", where e.g. with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, you set the stat to 16, then you also increase it by 2. So like, if your character has less than 16 strength, it's set to 16 + 2 = 18, business as usual; but if your character already had 17-18, the 16 wouldn't apply and instead you only get +2, so 19 or 20. That would probably be how I'd want to do it - make those items still useful for high strength characters, but still maintain that...you know, that kind of classic idea of a random peasant boy finding and putting on the gauntlets and becoming as strong as an adult ogre. But...I don't think you can do that kind of mixed mode like you can with AC - the strength (and other stats) effect doesn't allow for setting it and ignoring it if it's already higher.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[CamDawg]

You can do a staggered approach like this on the EEs, but I'd scale it entirely as bonuses. Have something like the Ogre Gauntlets be +4 STR if the NPC is <9 strength, +3 if they're 9-12, +2 for 13-16, or +1 for 17+.

[subtledoctor]

I’ve got one or two spells in FnP set up to “set to 18 if stat < 18; apply +1 bonus if stat >= 18.”

I haven’t gotten around to changing all such spells to act that way. Come to think of it, that is really within SR’s ambit. Maybe worth a RFC for inclusion in SR4b19. 

EE-only, though. 

[Lianos]

18 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Conversely, the "+x bonus" stats are potentially even *more* abusive because they allow you to reach unusually high numbers if combined together.

IMO this is only the case for strength because you can combine gauntlets and girdle and weapon. For all other stats there are too few items which gives significant bonuses resp. there are better in-slot alternatives. I find the IR philosophy of "+x bonus" MUCH more balanced and would opt for it any day over the vanilla behavoir.

 

14 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

If there was a way to only apply the stat-setting if the stat was lower, you could do a "mixed mode", where e.g. with Gauntlets of Ogre Power, you set the stat to 16, then you also increase it by 2. So like, if your character has less than 16 strength, it's set to 16 + 2 = 18, business as usual; but if your character already had 17-18, the 16 wouldn't apply and instead you only get +2, so 19 or 20. That would probably be how I'd want to do it - make those items still useful for high strength characters, but still maintain that...you know, that kind of classic idea of a random peasant boy finding and putting on the gauntlets and becoming as strong as an adult ogre. But...I don't think you can do that kind of mixed mode like you can with AC - the strength (and other stats) effect doesn't allow for setting it and ignoring it if it's already higher.

For the sake of simplicity, please don't do this.

[Bartimaeus]

22 minutes ago, Lianos said:

IMO this is only the case for strength because you can combine gauntlets and girdle and weapon. For all other stats there are too few items which gives significant bonuses resp. there are better in-slot alternatives. I find the IR philosophy of "+x bonus" MUCH more balanced and would opt for it any day over the vanilla behavoir.

I use 3E-style stats (where the +x style is the only thing that makes sense), so I definitely have no intention of going back. As for the other idea, if it is possible in the EEs, it seems like it'd be more suited to a mini-mod.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

more suited to a mini-mod.

Or maybe an optional component of SR, only visible to EE installs? Making a whole new mod for that seems like overkill. @grodrigues any thoughts on this?

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Or maybe an optional component of SR, only visible to EE installs? Making a whole new mod for that seems like overkill. @grodrigues any thoughts on this?

Uh...why would stats for items be in SR? Perhaps you thought I was replying to you, but I was quoting Lianos.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Salk]

I agree with Lianos here.

The +X bonus to the stat is preferable to the flat value but I understand what Bartimaeus says about making the item even more abusive.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

why would stats for items be in SR?

I meant spells that set stats - they are analogous to these items. There are several spells like Strength that have the same issue as the unmodded Gauntlets of Dexterity etc. IR addresses these items by changing them to simple bonuses; but SR does not address the problem. Maybe it should.

[Bartimaeus]

30 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I meant spells that set stats - they are analogous to these items. There are several spells like Strength that have the same issue as the unmodded Gauntlets of Dexterity etc. IR addresses these items by changing them to simple bonuses; but SR does not address the problem. Maybe it should.

I know, but I directly quoted Lianos in a two sentence reply directly under his quote block, and we were on the topic of IR items (specifically Gauntlets of Ogre Power) and flat-setting vs. +x bonuses vs. a mixed-mode approach, and I said changing that for IR would probably be better suited for a mini-mod, especially given that different people will want different things (as this thread clearly demonstrates), so it might make more sense for a mini-mod. So saying "no, actually, making a mini-mod for that is overkill, just put it in SR" doesn't really...you know, make a whole lot of sense as a direct reply to and contradiction of me.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Bartimaeus