Thieving Skills for Bards

[subtledoctor]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:09 PM, Endarire said:

What about an option to make the thieving skills button a F12 innate ability like with Cleric/Rogues?

Pretty sure this can be done already, no EEex needed. Could even do it on the old pre-2.0 engine I think. I did it in some mod or other, some years back. I think?

[morpheus562]

6 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Pretty sure this can be done already, no EEex needed. Could even do it on the old pre-2.0 engine I think. I did it in some mod or other, some years back. I think?

I think you're correct, and something I can look at for a later release. I was saying no to an immediate/short-term release since I don't have the mental bandwidth to do a deep dive into it at the moment.

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Pretty sure this can be done already, no EEex needed. Could even do it on the old pre-2.0 engine I think. I did it in some mod or other, some years back. I think?

Yeah, but the thieving ability that transforms into disable traps when you run it to a trap you for example detect via spell, won't be disarmeable. Cause the interaction won't happen. So no point in putting points into the skill... or really any of the others either. That's where you didn't ever find a way to go around. The EEex does a little more than you think.

58 minutes ago, morpheus562 said:

I think you're correct,

No he isn't. I think this is the third time he went into this trap. If memory serves, that is. So a little more practice of actual actions rather than theory crafting.

[morpheus562]

21 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Yeah, but the thieving ability that transforms into disable traps when you run it to a trap you for example detect via spell, won't be disarmeable. Cause the interaction won't happen. So no point in putting points into the skill... or really any of the others either. That's where you didn't ever find a way to go around. The EEex does a little more than you think.

No he isn't. I think this is the third time he went into this trap. If memory serves, that is. So a little more practice of actual actions rather than theory crafting.

There are a few different things going on here, so let me try to help attempt to clarify. EEex is required for this mod due to 1) allow the thieving action to do all thieving abilities (not just pick pockets) and 2) for updating the action bar. To @subtledoctorpoint, I think I misunderstood it, so my apologies. EEex is still required to allow the thieving ability to do all thieving skills, but the act of mapping it to the F12 innate ability should not require EEex. Note: without EEex, mapping this to the F12 innate ability would only allow for Pick Pockets to occur.

Edited December 13, 2021 by morpheus562

[subtledoctor]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:03 AM, Jarno Mikkola said:

third time he went into this trap

??  Jarno face it, you have zero points in Set Traps.

On 12/13/2021 at 11:21 AM, morpheus562 said:

Note: without EEex, mapping this to the F12 innate ability would only allow for Pick Pockets to occur.

I don't have time to check now, but:

• I know you can give anyone the 'Set Trap' ability, as that is just an innate ability.
• The Set Trap ability does not work unless you have points in the Set Traps skill, which you cannot do in UI unless you are a thief
• But, you can apply static modifiers to raise the Set Traps skill, via background spells or script actions. In this way, any class can set traps.
• I know you can also apply modifiers in the background to improve other thief skills for non-thieves.
• In this way, via an invisible monster, we have a priest spell that gives you points in HiS/MS, and then checks that skill to make you hide in shadows like a thief, even if you are not a thief.
• I think you can give the "thieving" ability of cleric/thieves to non-thieves... but I'm not 100% certain.
• I know you cannot simply put points in a skill and use it via the C/T innate ability, else many mods would already be doing this for many years. But I don't know why this cannot be done.

I have no horse in this race - I simply turn bards into mage/thieves so they can use any thieving ability I want them to. But I am curious. From the quoted statement, can I infer that there is some sort of hard-coded class check when that ability is used?

[morpheus562]

@subtledoctorI believe @Bubbcan speak more eloquently at this than me, so please keep me honest. I need to use a hook within EEex to allow full thieving skills for the Bard; otherwise, I would be limited to only the Pick Pockets thieving ability. The following couple of lines are utilized to engage with EEex so the Barding Thieving Ability uses ALL Thieving Skills (i.e. Pick Pockets, Pick Locks, Disarm Traps).

function EEex_Actionbar_Hook_HasFullThieving(sprite)
    return true
end

So yes, this is something hard-coded that requires EEex to overcome.

Edited December 14, 2021 by morpheus562

[Jarno Mikkola]

7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

•  
• I think you can give the "thieving" ability of cleric/thieves to non-thieves... but I'm not 100% certain.

This is the 4th time you went into this trap. See, that skill is not thieving/disabling traps, it's pick pocketing, which turn into disable traps/unlocking of containers/doors IF the cheacter is a thief. If not, it doesn't(unless you fix it in the .exe via EEex). I think my points are properly located in the known stat.

The first time and second time was when you made a bard kit that was supposed to replace the thief-bard kit some one else made. Flamewing is memory still serves.

7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

But I don't know why this cannot be done.

You actually do, you have just forgotten it.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Jarno Mikkola

[subtledoctor]

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

is the 4th time

I literally have no idea what you're talking about?

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

See, that skill is not thieving, it's pick pocketing,

I can't resist:

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

The first time and second time was when you made a bard kit that was supposed to replace the thief-bard kit some one else made

I'm pretty sure I never did that? The only bard kits I ever made are right here - Jongleur, Gallant, Meistersinger, Loresinger. Stuff from the 2E Complete Bards' Handbook (plus the Loresinger which is a replacement for the Chorister kit from Song & Silence because S&S was not updated for the EEs at the time). I never had anything to do with Flamewing, and I never made any thief-bard kit, except recently when I moved the entire bard class into the thief class.

I think you have me mistaken for someone else?

[morpheus562]

@Jarno Mikkola@subtledoctor gentlemen, I appreciate the spirited debate, but I feel it is starting to get off topic. If there are questions or discussion points for my Thieving Skills for Bards mod, I am happy to discuss here. The recent conversation may be best served in another thread. Thank you all!

[Graion Dilach]

One suggestion I have for this one - it should update Potion of Perception to be useable by Bards.

[morpheus562]

@Graion Dilach good suggestion! I will include that change in the next release. I also plan on updating the quest from Narlen Darkwalk in the Baldur's Gate Thieves Guild, where it checks if the party has a Thief, to also include Bards within the check. Are there other quest checks in the series that anyone else can provide since none others easily come to mind?

[Endarire]

What about for BG2's strongholds?

[morpheus562]

1 minute ago, Endarire said:

What about for BG2's strongholds?

I will not change up strongholds. Bards will still only be allowed the Bard stronghold. Reason being is they are still Bards, not Thieves. Only difference now is they have a bit more utility than before. The check for the BGEE Thieves Guild is because Narlen will not give the quests to a party that does not have a Thief. Now that Bards can actually complete the quests for Narlen, I feel I can add it in for the quest to allow a check for Bards.

[morpheus562]

Official release for version 1.1 which brings the following enhancements:

• Updated quest with Narlen Darkwalk so Bards can do the quest.
• Updated Potion of Perception to be useable by Bards.
• Corrected off-by-one error in updating SKILLBRD.2DA.
• Updated skill point allocation for levels 1 through 5.
• Updated install order/compatability checks for PI.

[Endarire]

Will thieving skill bonus items like Potions of Master Thievery be also Bard usable?