The Problem with Druids (How v9 can help)

[Black Elk]

OK I know you guys are really trying to get the final version of the NPCs project under wraps and so far the work you've done has been exceptional. But since development is still technically going on I thought I'd bring up something thats been bothering me since I first played BG in 97.

 

Druids have always been my favorite character class, so I was really keen to notice one particular flaw in the BG backstory.

 

On the surface Candlekeep seems to provide a reasonably workable backstory for nearly every class. Fighters, Thiefs, Bards, Mages (and to a lesser extent Clerics) all seem quite at home there. NPCs of nearly ever ilk can be found roaming about the grounds, and its easy to see how one might achieve their first level in any of those classes without leaving the town walls.

 

Gorion would appear to offer a wealth of instruction for any aspiring mage. Bards have an endless supply of reading material to catch up on the local lore. There are plenty of swordarms and rats to the keep fighter types busy. One can easilly imagine a few mischivious escapades with Imoen to keep the kleptomaniacs on their toes. Even the Clerics have their Temple of Oghma (though this is a bit lacking in some respects).

 

The up and comming Druid, on the other hand, seems painfully neglected.

 

Sure there's Old Ness to look after, but even that’s a stretch and I was always left wanting more. So what to do?

 

I think this situation could be easily rectified if we had some sort of Wilderness savvy NPC in Candlekeep. Perhaps not a permanent resident, but a kind of frequent visitor. Someone who has taken an interest in the protagonist and could introduce him/her to the ways of the wilderness. Even if it was just a few lines or even (wishing hoping) an extra mini quest... it would go a long way in settling these back-story issues.

 

To go one better, an expanded relationship with Jaheira during the early phase of the game would be really awesome. One where she could act as a kind of tutor with a few extra banters (or at least recognize that the protagonist is not wholly oblivious when it comes to druidic lore.)

 

I could see Rangers benefiting from a set up like this as well.

 

Well there you have it... My number one wish for the BG1NPC project. Any thoughts? If you guys are receptive to the NPC idea I'd be happy to offer some suggestions or draft some simple dialogue.

 

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Also, and you can't tell me this wouldn't be cool, what if the Protagonist (druid/ranger) could befriend an animal outside the Friendly Arm Inn, who could then serve as a companion? A wolf or wild dog, who could be summoned using a special stone ala BG2. Now that would be really awesome Just think of the possibilities

 

 

Imoen, fastening pink bows around the poor dog's neck. Monty, always trying to eat it. Stealing bones from Xzar and chasing Boo around forest.

Edwin's bizzare allergic reactions.

 

And of course who could forget the Canine romance with Faldorn's companion. Now there's a thought... After all who wouldn't want to see puppies in BG

 

I'm not holding out for anything that involved though. Just the simple NPC would be a major improvement.

 

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PS.

 

If by some magical coincidence the NPC in Candlekeep was named "Black Elk" and were to use this portrait:

 

 

 

 

Well... lets just say you'd score some major points with at least 1 fan

 

Cheers

[SimDing0]

The up and comming Druid, on the other hand, seems painfully neglected.

Given that we're working with Tutu, we've also barbarians (which are basically never going to make sense) to explain away.

 

Also, and you can't tell me this wouldn't be cool, what if the Protagonist (druid/ranger) could befriend an animal outside the Friendly Arm Inn, who could then serve as a companion? A wolf or wild dog, who could be summoned using a special stone ala BG2. Now that would be really awesome Just think of the possibilities

Familiar interaction would, perhaps, not go amiss.

[Domi]

I am against the familair idea because I think that the way they are handled in BG is not suitable for living breathing creature - what I would do if I were to do it is the following:

 

- create an animal that would seek out PC from time to time and have conversations with him/her; to show that the bond is strengthening, I would gradually reduce the intervals between such appearances; it maybe will show up to help in a few major battles unexpected. Wolf, bear, wild dog or deer sound like candidates for familiars.

 

What is needed? Texts

When it will be done? Phase IV

 

I will happily add a non-joinable NPC in Candlekeep if you write a few dialogues for him/her.

 

I would add things for Jaheira in her Player-initiated dialogues now with the questions about wilderness and druidic ethos if again you write those before April 14, 2005. If not, I will leave it for Phase IV.

[Black Elk]

Wow cool. I didn't even know there was going to be a phase 4

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you Domi. Familiars even in BG2 had many problems. That a level one character could ever manage to aquire a Quasit or Memphit as a familiar seems just ridiculous.

 

I think I like your idea about having the animal appear at various moments throughout the game (durring important conflicts or key crossroad style situations.) That would give them a life of their own, rather than behaving simply like a dominated animal/monster. One reason why I thought the companion idea would be cool for the NPC project is that we would have an opertunity to provide a little background to the relationship.

 

Where did the companion come from? Why has it attached itself to the protagonist? stuff like that.

 

I have a lot of ideas along these lines, especially for a wolf or other canine companion. My original idea was to have the animal appear first in Candlekeep (alongside the NPC I mentioned.) This would give us a chance to introduce the Animal by name and lay out some basic characteristics.

 

Latter the Animal appears outside the Friendly Arm Inn, wounded, with its companion having mysteriously disappeared... (presumably as the result of some violent encounter.) The Protagonist would then have the oppertunity to heal the animal, thus establishing the initial companion relationship (ie a blood debt).

 

I think the way to approach things would be to have a normal wolf (not a magical or speaking creature.) Instead or having direct dialogue, the interactions could be more implied, with the protagonist or other NPCs doing the talking and the animal responding in a more emotive way. That would be much more believable and in keeping with the level progression of BG1.

 

I really like the idea of having the Animal leave from time to time and return later of its own accord. Though it would definetly be cool if he/she could temporailly accompany the party at various points.

 

Anyhow, as you can see I'm excited by the idea and will definetly draft up some ideas for your review.

 

Sim's coment about Barbarians is also worth taking a look at. If we work it right we can probably accomodate druids, rangers and barbarians with just the 1 NPC and a few different dialogue strings dependent on the protagonists initial class.

[jester]

So Candlekeep, the one-stop-shop for all your development needs. I wonder why anybody is raised anywhere else in Faerun, if they need only stroll through the park around the big library to pick up every kit from assassin to barbarian, from berserker to druid in one lengthy afternoon session.

[SimDing0]

So Candlekeep, the one-stop-shop for all your development needs. I wonder why anybody is raised anywhere else in Faerun, if they need only stroll through the park around the big library to pick up every kit from assassin to barbarian, from berserker to druid in one lengthy afternoon session.

Except they're not allowed in because they don't have a valuable tome.

[Domi]

I think the way to approach things would be to have a normal wolf (not a magical or speaking creature.) Instead or having direct dialogue, the interactions could be more implied, with the protagonist or other NPCs doing the talking and the animal responding in a more emotive way. That would be much more believable and in keeping with the level progression of BG1.

 

What I am looking for is bonding of an animal that is mutually acceptble, a-la Robin Hobb's Witted. The 'conversations' are indeed emotive, images etc. This way we'd actually show the bonding process, as opposite to summoning animal and saying - now, you have a familiar, carry it in your backpack.

 

I do think that there should be a bit of a choice of which animal to bond so different PC temperaments could be taken into account.

 

You can start with the animal that was say a wild dog from Candlekeep that belonged to Black Elk, and if PC does not like it, 3-4 other choices could be offered throughout the game (wolf, deer, bear, panther for example) This way, PC can actually relate to the animal and it will be a bit more natural. And yes, I think it is very important that the animal retains its own life only showing up occasionally.

 

I would have loved to have a horse for paladin PC's as well (even if it is used only as a pack horse) , but we do not have animations... so, nope, that is not going to work.

 

'Phase IV' is not something set in stone, but I suspect that there would be a period of time when we have to work with bug reports etc when interetsing subprojects like this one can be undertaken an dthen included into an update.

 

Anyway, have fun, and looking forward to seeing the texts.

[Andyr]

It's an interesting idea but unless it relates to the joinable NPCs I'm not sure how within the scope of the mod it is... It might be better in a Tutu quest pack or something.

[Domi]

probably, but I think we can do it first and decide where it fits the best for dl purposes later. I am interested in working on it 'nyways.

[Caedwyr]

What I am looking for is bonding of an animal that is mutually acceptble, a-la Robin Hobb's Witted. The 'conversations' are indeed emotive, images etc. This way we'd actually show the bonding process, as opposite to summoning animal and saying - now, you have a familiar, carry it in your backpack.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Slightly off-topic, but I was under the impression that this was one part you didn't like about the Robin Hobb novels.

[Domi]

I did not in the Assassin's trilogy, but I liked how it become developped in the Tawny Man - as soon as it stopped being wolf-exclusive. I am right now in my 'I do not like the serpents' phase after the Liveships trilogy. It is possible that after a couple more reads I will love it all and have no cause for whimpering.

[drosketer]

I'm not sure if this really fits in with the BG1NPC project, but it is related to the possibilities that TuTu opened up and druids...

 

If you develop a druid (a Shapeshifter particularly might make sense) and make it to Balduran's isle, you would think the dialogs would be a wee bit different. Might make for a rather substantial re-working of dialogs for a particular class (which some might argue against), but it opens up some interesting possibilities. I believe there is another project out there that will make Delaney/Durlyle an NPC for BG2 - this would perhaps allow for an opportunity to have either join as a temporary companion on the Island? Perhaps change the outcome of what actually occurs (without having to re-work the entire module)?

 

Anyway, it's just a thought (and not much of one at that), but I thought I'd throw it out there!

[Domi]

My reservation to reworking Balduran Island are firstly that as far as I know there are problems with kits recognition unless one patches/fixes IDS, and secondly that it means reworking of the original... which is not what we have set out to do. If someone can make a big adventure mod for Shapeshifting druids with long-reaching consequences at Balduran's Island, that's great.

 

Adding Delainey or Dirlule as joinable NPCs is already handled by another G3 mod.

[Andyr]

That point regarding the Shapeshifter is quite interesting, yeah.

[Theodur]

To go one better, an expanded relationship with Jaheira during the early phase of the game would be really awesome. One where she could act as a kind of tutor with a few extra banters (or at least recognize that the protagonist is not wholly oblivious when it comes to druidic lore.)

 

I think I will add a few banters between Jaheira and druid PC, have idea for one already. I planned to do that long time ago, but I cut some of my ideas, because it seemed to me that Jaheira already had too much content in comparison to most of the NPC's.