[Discussion] What exactly are we trying to fix?

[subtledoctor]

9 hours ago, Trouveur80 said:

Hi, I don.t know if it is in the scope of this mod, but I encountered a bug with an equipped cursed weapon : it prevents using magical weapons from spells like Harm or Melf's Minute Meteors, or even weapons from transformation like Slayer. The original cursed weapon default attack is still used instead.

Probably cursed weapons should just block any spells that create magical weapons. Doesn’t it say something like “you cannot unequip it without a Remove Curse spell?” Those spells are not Remove Curse so… they should fail to dislodge the cursed weapon from one’s hands. 

[Trouveur80]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Probably cursed weapons should just block any spells that create magical weapons. Doesn’t it say something like “you cannot unequip it without a Remove Curse spell?” Those spells are not Remove Curse so… they should fail to dislodge the cursed weapon from one’s hands. 

But what about shapeshift ? If you now are a bear or the slayer, why should you not be able to use your claws ?

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, Trouveur80 said:

But what about shapeshift ? If you now are a bear or the slayer, why should you not be able to use your claws ?

Maybe cursed weapons should bar shapeshifting? Not kidding. It’s a curse, it’s supposed to inconvenience you. 

[Lava]

The problem is that with all the mods that add shapeshifting and summoned weapons it's kinda impossible to target each of such instance. So it would be best if cursed weapon had some kind of "lower priority" and the summoned weapon was used rather than the cursed weapon. Right now it's getting a bit absurd that a cursed weapon can prevent you from turning into Slayer. Even worse if it's also going to happen during the first change.

Inconvinience is part of the curse, but that would be something else. Also, it's not just the mod problem, because I guess the same thing is going to happen if you have original cursed weapon in your hand, like the (cursed) berserker sword and you may have it if you're playing EET or if it's exportable. I am pretty sure that's not the only cursed weapon, too.

Also, never making a single "usable" cursed weapon (one that grands some benefits so it's not just the curse - mostly like the Kazgaroth's claw) quite limiting so some universal solution for all cursed weapons would be amazing, the question remains, though - if it's hardcoded how cursed weapon "(mis)behave" with shapeshifting abilities and summoned weapons. 

That's mostly why I already talked to @CamDawg , but this matter may require an additional investigation.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Lava

[Dan_P]

Since this is already being discussed in here... Cursed items really shouldn't be "cursed" at all. I'm not talking for EEFP. Just game design. They should have positives and negatives, then let the player decide whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

 

1 hour ago, Lava said:

The problem is that with all the mods that add shapeshifting and summoned weapons it's kinda impossible to target each of such instance. So it would be best if cursed weapon had some kind of "lower priority" and the summoned weapon was used rather than the cursed weapon. Right now it's getting a bit absurd that a cursed weapon can prevent you from turning into Slayer. Even worse if it's also going to happen during the first change.

I don't know if how cursed items work is "fixable" in the main hand, but in IWDEE, the Breath of Auril dagger can be placed in the offhand, and it gets unequipped if you switch to a ranged or 2-handed weapon. You can't remove it, but you don't get the negative (or positive) effects. This would suggest that cursed items can be unequipped, but not actually removed.

That being said, Slayer form should probably just remove cursed items.

[Lava]

59 minutes ago, Dan_P said:

Cursed items really shouldn't be "cursed" at all. I'm not talking for EEFP. Just game design. They should have positives and negatives, then let the player decide whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I disagree. It depends on the specific item and what it does. I can imagine you "wear" Kazgaroth's Claw and it feeds on you. Same with the mentioned item: it's a cosmic sphere that when used, will prevent you from letting it go.

Some cursed items are also like traps for those that put on items without casting identification and that's exactly how I found out about the cursed items when I was a kid and when I played BG1 for the first time.

There are also some a huge portion of items that give both bonuses and penalties and don't need "curse" tick. But these groups are entirely different things.

Also, that doesn't change a thing if you consider it bad design or not: there are items like that in the game, there are mods that follow the same rule. It's not personal, but that's a fact and we're talking about Fixpack right now, not Tweaks Anthology. It's not a matter of tweaking, but a matter of fixing weird situations when properities like these clash (curse vs. summoned weapons). I think having "uncurse all cursed items" in Anthology would be cool, but I'm more concerned with the bug right now...

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, Dan_P said:

Since this is already being discussed in here... Cursed items really shouldn't be "cursed" at all. I'm not talking for EEFP. Just game design. They should have positives and negatives, then let the player decide whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Not appropriate for a fixpack, as you said, but Item Revisions already makes modifications to cursed items along those lines. Some of them still aren't much good, but others are.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Dan_P said:

That being said, Slayer form should probably just remove cursed items.

I agree - it’s a transformation into a divine avatar. That of all things should remove a curse. This could get a specific carve-out. (Not to mention it’s in a game-critical cutscene.)

Casting 3rd-level Melf’s Meteors, or 1st-level Chill Touch? Not so much. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

That could be a little obnoxious if you're intentionally wearing a non-weapon cursed item, but I guess the impact is pretty small overall.

[Lava]

6 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I agree - it’s a transformation into a divine avatar. That of all things should remove a curse. This could get a specific carve-out. (Not to mention it’s in a game-critical cutscene.)

Casting 3rd-level Melf’s Meteors, or 1st-level Chill Touch? Not so much. 

I normally wouldn't mind that, but I think there are shape changes that put most shapechange effects via the weapon item (like dex bonuses are built into the actual claw) and some directly change you by, for example, "polymorph into specific" and in these situation things may get buggy, as you will get part of the effects (direct ones) and part won't happen (because - again, for example - claw is not equipped).

And as for the summoned weapons: if I understood correctly, the weapon is summoned, you can see it on the action bard, but you actually make a different attack.

I am speaking of this mostly because of such weird mixes and I think that's why @Trouveur80 wrote to me: because it was like a mixed thing which was like getting a mixed message - on one hand you can see you have something else, on the other hand it's different kind of attack than the bar/game shows  

[LichDiet]

Super short and simplified LichDiet Hot Take on the EE Fix PacK.

Do: Fix Errors (Core Component)

Do: Fix Omissions (Core Component)

Do: Define Errors and Omissions

Consider: User choice to change anything else (Optional Component)

Do:  Define anything else (Optional Component)

[Mordekaie]

Any plan or discussion around the Alignment Correction from Oversight ?

[CamDawg]

1 minute ago, Mordekaie said:

Any plan or discussion around the Alignment Correction from Oversight ?

These were the starting point for BG2FP's alignment fixes (core and OBC), and both are already included in BG2EE.

[Endarire]

Disabling Malchor Harpell in BG2 is already in another mod, but disabling the Ducal Palace Winski Perorate auto-game over should be an install option if it still applies.

Also, should Sir Lothtyran be renamed to avoid a conflict with the BG1 man of the same name?  I noticed BeamDog has liked using at least similar names for its characters to names in the originals.  Look at Neera (BD) and Neira (BW), for example.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Endarire

[Endarire]

BG2EE ToB Companion quests: Doing Hexxat's before Neera's may bug Hexxat's.