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[Discussion] Opcodes 109, 175, 185 (Paralyze and Hold)


DavidW

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21 hours ago, subtledoctor said:
  • op109 is "paralysis," i.e. some kind of biological reaction or mechanism, often delivered by touch attacks like from ghouls and carrion crawlers
  • op175 is a purely magical "Hold" effect which I tend to think of as a physically immobilizing force
  • op185 I think of as similar to Hold, i.e. magical immobilization, except nothing can be allowed to be immune to it as it is only ever used in special cases like Otiluke's Sphere and cut scenes (and I agree the Implosion HLA should use it)

I see, so basically op175 is very similar to a Force Power (from Star Wars 🤓)...

Having said that, should things like BARBARIAN_RAGE, CLERIC_CHAOTIC_COMMANDS, etc... block both of them or just one...?

19 hours ago, DavidW said:

(3) basilisks, for technical reasons that I don't think are relevant.

This does sound like a bug.

Basilisks (f.i. "basill1.itm") should only apply op134 (Petrification) and not also op109 (Paralyze)...

19 hours ago, DavidW said:

- 185 is being used as a bespoke hold-in-place.

If that's indeed the case, then also things like "spcl415.spl" (snares) should use op185...?

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12 minutes ago, Luke said:

This does sound like a bug.

Basilisks (f.i. "basill1.itm") should only apply op134 (Petrification) and not also op109 (Paralyze)...

I don't think so - it applies only to inanimate objects. I'm not sure what it's for to be honest, but it's obviously there deliberately so I'm reluctant to remove it without understanding why it was there.

13 minutes ago, Luke said:

 

20 hours ago, DavidW said:

- 185 is being used as a bespoke hold-in-place.

If that's indeed the case, then also things like "spcl415.spl" (snares) should use op185...?

It's explicitly described as 'hold' in the text. And shifting it to 185 elides the difference between Snare at that level and at the level when it casts Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

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Is it possible to change op185 so that it wouldn't set STATE_HELPLESS?

This way I can safely use op232 with para2 = 5 to trigger certain behaviors, without having to worry about characters breaking free from cutscene hold.

Or is opcode editing outside of the scope of the fixpack?

PS. we will probably need separate icons for op109 and op175/185 as already suggested previously.

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11 hours ago, guyudennis said:

Is it possible to change op185 so that it wouldn't set STATE_HELPLESS?

This way I can safely use op232 with para2 = 5 to trigger certain behaviors, without having to worry about characters breaking free from cutscene hold.

You could just do a global patch to any spell that uses op185, and have them apply immunity to your contingent effect.

Lots of ways to skin cats these days...

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On 1/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, guyudennis said:

Is it possible to change op185 so that it wouldn't set STATE_HELPLESS?

This way I can safely use op232 with para2 = 5 to trigger certain behaviors, without having to worry about characters breaking free from cutscene hold.

Why not just use opcode #165 - pause target, and its obverse #270 unpause target?

Paused creatures appear frozen in place and can't take actions, but are not STATE_HELPLESS and oddly retain normal armor class (irrelevant during a cutscene or sequence of the game where only the protagonist is supposed to be able to act).

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4 hours ago, polytope said:

Why not just use opcode #165 - pause target, and its obverse #270 unpause target?

Paused creatures appear frozen in place and can't take actions, but are not STATE_HELPLESS and oddly retain normal armor class (irrelevant during a cutscene or sequence of the game where only the protagonist is supposed to be able to act).

You misunderstood me: I wanted to make an ability that allows my character to “break free” if he is rendered helpless, but I didn’t want him to break free from a forced hold like during a cutscene.

 I believe what subtledoctor suggested will achieve just that.

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15 hours ago, guyudennis said:

You misunderstood me: I wanted to make an ability that allows my character to “break free” if he is rendered helpless, but I didn’t want him to break free from a forced hold like during a cutscene.

Yes, I knew you were talking about adding an ability only triggered by STATE_HELPLESS.

The pause target opcode (#165) doesn't set STATE_HELPLESS, so if it were used for cutscene spells like spin769 & spin863 (in place of the usual hold effect) it wouldn't trigger your special ability. Of course, spin862 then needs to be an unpause (#270) not a remove paralysis (#162).

Edited by polytope
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