Is SCS aware of CDTweaks weapon proficiency mod?

[Opipo]

I'm trying to install CDTweaks and it has this component

"Alter Weapon Proficiency System"
-BG-style weapon proficiencies, with weapon styles [the bigg]

 

But i have been wondering if SCS takes it into account or not, and the game might end up with enemies without any proficiency points in their weapons. Which would not be very nice me thinks, thanks.

[polytope]

As of the most recent versions of CDTweaks, if you install an alternate weapon proficiency system it ensures creatures wielding weapons have as many pips in the new proficiency as they formally did. SCS gives most single class fighters weapon grandmastery if they're high enough level to qualify for it, so I think you should install SCS, then CDTweaks afterward.

[DavidW]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:44 PM, Opipo said:

I'm trying to install CDTweaks and it has this component

"Alter Weapon Proficiency System"
-BG-style weapon proficiencies, with weapon styles [the bigg]

 

But i have been wondering if SCS takes it into account or not, and the game might end up with enemies without any proficiency points in their weapons. Which would not be very nice me thinks, thanks.

SCS reads the game files to determine what the proficiency system is; it doesn't make hardcoded assumptions about them. It will handle CDTweaks fine; indeed, it will be fine if you let wizards put four pips into proficiencies, fighters only one pip, and you rearrange the proficiency system alphabetically so that you can specialize in weapons A-D, E-G, H-M, N-R, S-V, and W-Z.

[jastey]

10 minutes ago, DavidW said:

it will be fine if you let wizards put four pips into proficiencies, fighters only one pip, and you rearrange the proficiency system alphabetically so that you can specialize in weapons A-D, E-G, H-M, N-R, S-V, and W-Z.

That made me laugh.

Did you write a function for that?

[Opipo]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:36 PM, DavidW said:

SCS reads the game files to determine what the proficiency system is; it doesn't make hardcoded assumptions about them. It will handle CDTweaks fine; indeed, it will be fine if you let wizards put four pips into proficiencies, fighters only one pip, and you rearrange the proficiency system alphabetically so that you can specialize in weapons A-D, E-G, H-M, N-R, S-V, and W-Z.

A witty reply but it does appear there are issues there

 

~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2161 // Alter Weapon Proficiency System -> BG-style weapon proficiencies, with weapon styles [the bigg]: v14
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4030 // Improved shapeshifting: 34.3

 

This is a lvl 9/11 Jaheira with a Wolf's Paw equipped

And she does not appear to be proficient with the Way of the Paw and gets hit with a +2 unproficient thaco penalty. She is also getting a damage bonus from.. 2h weapons? Isn't the Paw supposed to be a dual wield.. or something. Either way something is wrong here. It's a good thing at least her Pyro summon does more damage than the entire party combined haha.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Opipo

[Opipo]

This seems to be the problem, unfortunately i can't tell which part is broken, because i don't know how this mod works, and getting mods on android to test  is hell.

 

funny side note: wolf uses a two-handed dagger with greatsword proficiency

 

[polytope]

There is definitely a problem here, but more in the SCS "Improved Shapeshifting" component than the CDTweaks "Alter Weapon Proficiency" component.

In my game all shapeshift tokens have proficiency: 94-katana (which is clearly altered to greatsword proficiency). Really, these should have no proficiency at all, especially since druids can't use katana. How is it that no one else noticed this yet? Druids - or at least, shapeshifting as a druid - obviously not a popular choice with SCS players.

I believe the 2-handed flag is intentional, simply to prevent you using any other weapon or shield while shapeshifted.

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, polytope said:

In my game all shapeshift tokens have proficiency: 94-katana (which is clearly altered to greatsword proficiency). Really, these should have no proficiency at all, especially since druids can't use katana. How is it that no one else noticed this yet?

I think the design is, have them use a proficiency that druids cannot use so that you have reliable uniformity (e.g. you won't see F/Ds getting specialization bonuses, which might happen if it used Club proficiency or something). And then apply an op233 equipping effect to set the proficiency level of the stat uses by the item. This way the item itself fully controls the degree of any bonuses players get while wielding it.

The problem here is that, after the CDTweaks component is installed, SCS has a mismatch between the proficiency the  tokens use, and the proficiency they set.

Simple enough to fix.

[jmerry]

Oh, I've noticed the proficiency thing. And I've exploited it before; you can effectively give a dual class F->D grand mastery in shapeshifting if you want.

Using a proficiency that is normally available to druids causes worse problems; an older version of the component used dagger proficiency, and also granted it. Which meant that a F/D could equip a token and then take a second dot in the proficiency at level-up. Remove the token, and that's permanent dagger specialization for half price. Or keep the token and get the extra attack/defense/APR.

I think the current versions are classified as dagger-type weapons that use katana proficiency; no wonder that would go wrong when another mod alters the proficiency system.

The best solution would be to remove all proficiency-granting effects from the shapeshift tokens and set them to use "None" proficiency. Other shapeshift weapons are type "Miscellaneous" or "Hand-to-hand weapons", but I'm not sure what that would do to the ability to equip them at will; they might have to be left with one of the standard weapon types.

While the vanilla shapeshift weapons are mostly one-handed (with the "Forbid off-hand weapon" flag in BG2EE to prevent dual-wielding), the SCS tokens are two-handed. Intentional, and it allows you to benefit from two-handed style but not a shield. Also prone to causing crashes in game version 2.5 and earlier, but thankfully that particular bug was fixed in patch 2.6. (Actually, in 2.5.17)

That screenshot had a question mark by the APR number ... for fighter/druids, you do get extra APR from your fighter levels. 2 base APR from the token, +1/2 from being a level 9 fighter.

[polytope]

Yes, the shapeshifting tokens needs to be classed as a weapon type (like dagger) to be equipped in a character's weapon slots at all, but should really neither have nor grant a weapon proficiency, as is the case with FIRESEED.itm

Just noticed that the tokens are also usable by ranger/clerics and fighter/mage/clerics.

10 hours ago, jmerry said:

Oh, I've noticed the proficiency thing. And I've exploited it before; you can effectively give a dual class F->D grand mastery in shapeshifting if you want.

If you like this kind of trick, wouldn't it make more sense to dual from shapeshifter (lvl 13, after getting the greater werewolf form) to fighter? The bear and wolf forms aren't really impressive enough in combat to be worth spending five proficiency slots to have grand master bonuses in... of course you'll eventually have earth and fire elemental transformation, but that takes 3m xp + however much you spent as a fighter (probably 250k), shapeshifter 13 -> fighter 14 only needs 2.25m.

Edited October 13, 2022 by polytope

[jmerry]

No, because there's no advantage to being a Shapeshifter. Just have Cernd hand you a Greater Werewolf token, and you get all of the benefits of the kit with none of the costs. You're much better off using one of the fighter kits.

Other characters that can use the tokens: monks, rogues with UAI. You can build a whole party around this ... and I have. It's up at the Beamdog forums, under the name "The Pack: A werewolf-themed playthrough". My BG2 party was a kensai 13 -> thief protagonist, Jaheira, Cernd, Rasaad, Jan, and Haer'Dalis. All of whom used greater werewolf tokens most of the time, at least once they could. (Game version 2.5, SCS version 32)

[polytope]

37 minutes ago, jmerry said:

there's no advantage to being a Shapeshifter. Just have Cernd hand you a Greater Werewolf token, and you get all of the benefits of the kit with none of the costs. You're much better off using one of the fighter kits.

Other characters that can use the tokens: monks, rogues with UAI. You can build a whole party around this

Ah yes, I see now that the tokens are usable not only by cleric/rangers and fighter/mage/clerics but also druid kits other than shapeshifter and unkitted druids. Interesting point about monks, the vanilla game engine won't let monks equip any 2-handed weapon, regardless of usability flags, but I remember now that EE allowed both this and even dual wielding for monk.

Is the token really better than a high level monk's unarmed attacks though, besides the regeneration and resistances? Monks only get their additional apr when actually fighting with fists and are immune to the haste granted by the token.

It's also kind of stretching verisimilitude, on second thoughts, maybe not, lycanthropy is contagious after all...

[jmerry]

No, it's worse for offense than monk unarmed attacks. Monks get warrior bonus APR at levels 7 and 13 with the tokens just like they do with manufactured weapons, but that's it. Still ... 50% elemental resists, massive regeneration, and over 100% magic resistance. The defensive bonuses are the point.

When faced with typical high-level encounters, that party's general strategy was to focus on the fighters first. Just let the mages waste their spells into all those passive defenses, and wear them down with auto-attacks once the real threats are dealt with.

Edited October 13, 2022 by jmerry

[subtledoctor]

8 hours ago, polytope said:

I see now that the [werewolf] tokens are usable not only by cleric/rangers and fighter/mage/clerics but also druid kits other than shapeshifter and unkitted druids

Not to rain on anyone's lupine parade, but this seems like... a bug...